Friday, September 24, 2010

Vatican Bank - Money Laundering Investigation

The press is reporting that funds have been seized at the Vatican Bank, aka the Institute for Religious Works (link to article). The chairman of the bank is apparently being investigated with respect to "a series of omissions in financial transactions," and the alleged wrong-doing is that "the Vatican bank had neglected to communicate to financial authorities where the money had come from."

26 comments:

steve said...

I've been told by an investigative reporter that the Pope has also been raiding the Treasury of Merit to fund fancy building projects. Stay tuned!

Paul Hoffer said...

TF, Is there a point to this article other than showing that the Vatican government is run no better than our American government when it comes to record-keeping? If you had dug deeper into the story you would found that the IOR was not accused of money laundering itself but not filling out forms. See, http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-09-24/vatican-bank-unaware-italian-account-was-frozen-chairman-tells-corriere.html and here: http://www.spiritdaily.com/vaticanbank.htm .

God bless!

Turretinfan said...

Mr. Hoffer,

Maybe you should read more than just the title of my post before commenting.

-TurretinFan

Paul Hoffer said...

Hello TF: the title of your post goes too far; the content of your post does not go far enough. There is no money laundering investigation. The investigation is about violating a specific regulation that requires banks operating in Italy and in the EU to fill out certain forms and apparently the Italian authorities feel that the IOR is operating in Italy even though Vatican City is a separate county (at least the last time I looked at an atlas) and the tranaction involved was a transfer between two accounts that the IOR has.

Thus, while the action may or may not be subject to a regulation promulgated under Italian law which can be found in a code book captioned with the title of "money laundering" does not mean that in and of itself the offense is "money laundering."

Turretinfan said...

Mr. Hoffer,

Are you sure you want to claim "There is no money laundering investigation"?

-TurretinFan

natamllc said...

Steve, you know, I see your point! :)

natamllc said...

Paul

you really should heed your adversary here.

I have been trained by FBI qualified trainers to know what money laundry is.

Your connotation is perjorative and malicious in intent.

As you know, ignorance is no defense even when it implicates the papacy and decrees ex cathedra when decreed!

Get a grip man, you are losing!

Paul Hoffer said...

Hello Messrs. Fan, Hays and LLC,

Here are some links for you to view:

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/4c7e5606-c802-11df-ae3a-00144feab49a.html

http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/20100924/wl_time/08599202119400

Unless you have other information that you are withholding as you seem to hint at, this seems to be nothing more than an instance of making a mountain out of a molehill regardless of whether one wants to call it "money laundering" or failing to fill out all the paperwork.

BTW, Mr. LLC, I think it great that FBI trainers showed you how to wash money. I learned how to do it accidently when I left a couple of dollars in a pants pocket. I was referring however to money laundering which is the practice of engaging in financial transactions to conceal the identity, source, or destination of illegally obtained money. There is nothing in any of the articles referenced that indicates that the money in question had been illegally obtained. What the IOR on this occasion was accused of doing was failing to provide information showing where the money had come from that it was transferring which I do recognize can be an important tool in fighting money laundering. As I understand it, the source of the funds was disclosed to the central govt. bank but was not provided to the banks that were the transmitting bank and the receiving bank. Money laundering is a mala in se criminal act, no filing the paperwork is merely a mala prohibitum crime.

I do acknowledge that individual bankers working for the IOR had been accused of and even found liable in the past of a number of shady dealings. Pope Benedict XVI has hired a number of new people to clean up any unethical practices at the bank and to get banking practices upto today's international standards.

To be frank, I am more interested in the beatification of Chiara Badano tomorrow than to take time to research the vagaries of Italian banking regulations.

BTW I do not consider Mr. Fan to be an adversary nor for that matter do I consider you to be an adversary as most usages of the word go. We may disagree on issues, but I do not doubt for one instant your love for Our Lord and Savior Jesus, hence my prayers for you all every day. As I understand Mk. 9:40 that shared love precludes us from being adversaries. That's my non-magisterial opinion for what it is worth.

God bless!

Paul Hoffer said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Turretinfan said...

It still sounds to me, Mr. Hoffer, like my post is pretty accurate. The investigation relates to the general issue of money laundering, and the particular faults (alleged) of the bank or its employees relates to omitting to do something that the bank ought to have done.

-TurretinFan

Paul Hoffer said...

Mr. Fan, I will have to chalk this one up to a matter of sincere disagreement. That said, I do appreciate the fact that you have allowed me to express my views and present links that would permit the reader to draw their own conclusions on this issue.

God bless!

Paul Hoffer said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
natamllc said...

PH

you be a good got getter!

I do see you saw my play on words.

However, a laundry is a laundry is a laundry when you are legally washing funds or illegally. It all comes down to reporting and handling them "correctly".

As you know there are a lot of ways to skin the cat, ah, wash money!

One cannot fault you, I suppose? It is you who happen to skin her the way you do, ah, when you stick up for your papal infallibilities.

"... this seems to be nothing more than an instance of making a mountain out of a molehill regardless of whether one wants to call it "money laundering" or failing to fill out all the paperwork."

I am glad to read those words.

Are they an inadvertent admission that with "all" human affairs, save One, even the Roman Catholic system does fail as we Christian do as well?

Jesus is the only One Who can save sinners!

After all, there is none righteous, no not one Save One, right?

Having had to sit in judgment and listen to the arguments from both sides, I have not as yet found many who would simply agree what they did was wrong however ignorant they were in doing it. It was still wrong.

Isn't lady justice suppose to be blind and not peeking out from her blindfold?

Pro 16:1 The plans of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD.

Pro 29:25 The fear of man lays a snare, but whoever trusts in the LORD is safe.
Pro 29:26 Many seek the face of a ruler, but it is from the LORD that a man gets justice.
Pro 29:27 An unjust man is an abomination to the righteous, but one whose way is straight is an abomination to the wicked.


And yes, I affirm distinctly I did not love God first. And at times I wish my flesh would be about loving Him too!

1Jn 4:10 In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
1Jn 4:11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another.

Coram Deo said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Coram Deo said...

How can Rome expect people to entrust her with their eternal souls if she can't keep her paperwork in order with respect to filthy lucre?

In my opinion financial irregularities are the least of Rome's problems, comparatively speaking.

In Christ,
CD

Fernando said...

Apparently everything is OK... I'm sure an uppdate will appear in this blog...

Fernando said...

@ Coram Deo... doesn't every religion and Christian denominations habe its problems? does it mean thate even your own religion cannot grant you salvation? Butt I doubt a Catholic woulde say they place its soul in Rome or its teachings... don't you agree?

Paul Hoffer said...

Hi Natamllc and Coram Deo (I hesitate on using the Mr. first here~is there a better appellation that you would prefer?), you are aware that there is a difference between Vatican City the country where the Pope is the head of state and the Vatican which is the religious headquarters for the Catholic Church? The Bank is part of that sovereign country not part of the Church itself. That distinction may not make a differene for you of course, but there it is.

God bless!

Turretinfan said...

Mr. Hoffer,

You know what is interesting, when it comes to things like lawsuits against the church, the pope seems happy to rely on immunity as a foreign sovereign.

-TurretinFan

Turretinfan said...

Fernando:

As of yesterday, it was still an issue - it was not "OK" (link to yesterday's article).

- TurretinFan

Paul Hoffer said...

Hello Mr. Fan, As far as governments utilizing sovereign immunity, countries have been doing that since St. Adomnan invented international law centuries ago. The US itself just claimed sovereign immunity (states secrets) in a suit filed by an American citizen- cum-al-Qaeda operative. The PRC claimed it for a shell company it owned in a civil law suit I once filed years ago. So the claim of sovereign immunity is not unusual in the least. So it is nothing new.

As human beings, we too try to claim immunity from our actions. For example, every time you post pseudonymously you are exercising an immunity from criticism. Similarly, by posting in a comment box rather than publishing my comments on my own blog in this instance renders my thoughts as opinion giving me a bit more freedom to say what I want. Not that you or I necessarily need to resort to that immunity, but nevertheless we have recourse to it. Thus, we all resort to immunizing ourselves from consequences in this life in one way or another. As Mt. 25 shows, claims for such immunity ("Lord, Lord") shows the futility of claiming such when we are judged by Our Lord and held to account for our actions.

God bless!

natamllc said...

PH,

now my suspicions excel with regard to you.

First of all, haven't you ever read this?


Joh 18:33 So Pilate entered his headquarters again and called Jesus and said to him, "Are you the King of the Jews?"
Joh 18:34 Jesus answered, "Do you say this of your own accord, or did others say it to you about me?"
Joh 18:35 Pilate answered, "Am I a Jew? Your own nation and the chief priests have delivered you over to me. What have you done?"
Joh 18:36 Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from the world."
Joh 18:37 Then Pilate said to him, "So you are a king?" Jesus answered, "You say that I am a king. For this purpose I was born and for this purpose I have come into the world--to bear witness to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth listens to my voice."


Second, that there is why I can affirm the Prophet Isaiah when he writes for God, this, which establishes the foundation your religion is based upon, which is false:

Isa 2:1 The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem.
Isa 2:2 It shall come to pass in the latter days that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established as the highest of the mountains, and shall be lifted up above the hills; and all the nations shall flow to it,
Isa 2:3 and many peoples shall come, and say: "Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob, that he may teach us his ways and that we may walk in his paths." For out of Zion shall go the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
Isa 2:4 He shall judge between the nations, and shall decide disputes for many peoples; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore.
Isa 2:5 O house of Jacob, come, let us walk in the light of the LORD.


Paul, your religion is false by the arguments you make today and yesterday.

Your popes are an anti-christ being's will. They possibly unbeknown to themselves, in or out of that office are exercising a government function of an earthly kingdom of the world and not from the One, True and the Holy Kingdom of God out of Eternity!

Here is the "truth" about what Christ is about. Keep in mind again, what your argument does is state that your religion is presently the organization on earth of some organization Christ refers is coming! How can you conflate the contrary?

Luk 22:28 "You are those who have stayed with me in my trials,
Luk 22:29 and I assign to you, as my Father assigned to me, a kingdom,
Luk 22:30 that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.


Your religion has established a singular seat of authority on earth , the papacy, and teaches it is the sole representation of Christ's Seat in Heaven!

Hmmmmmm?

Again, you betray what the Lord's teaches cited from three difference human sources above yet it is from One Holy Spirit through these men! Are you now prepared to correct the written Scriptures of the Word of God the Holy Spirit teaches?

Coram Deo said...

Mr. Hoffer,

Are you suggesting that Vatican City is not a church-state?

In Christ,
CD

Paul Hoffer said...

Hello Coram Deo:

How do you define Church-State? Vatican City is considered to be an absolute monarchy with an ecclesiastical form of government, which does mean that the Pope and church officials do hold the positions of authority within the government. That said, it does have a mayor/president who is not the Pope. Because it is an absolute monarchy there is overlap between the Vatican City and Catholic Church, but they are not considered to be the same entity. It has a civil constitution, a legislature, a court system for civil matters and criminal cases, its own police force and a postal system that is administered civilly.

Here is an article that might help-
http://www.nyulawglobal.org/globalex/vatican.htm

God bless!

Turretinfan said...

PH:

You wrote: "As far as governments utilizing sovereign immunity, countries have been doing that"

Indeed. My point was more related to the fact that supporters of the church treat it like a state to get immunity and then try to distinguish from the state when something goes awry with the state.

It seems a little convenient.

-TurretinFan

Yahya Snow said...

@Fernando

Hi, I never knew you commented here.

I would say Rome is ocnsidered an authority by you Catholics thus any wrong doings by Rome will surely further arm those who oppose Catholicism

I see you regularly bashing Islam...its interesting to see you on the defensive here


Thanks