Saturday, May 14, 2011

Counting Down with Camping ...

In a previous blog post, I commented on the fact that Camping has demonstrably miscounted the number of days between April 1, 33, and May 21, 2011. The number of days 722,501, not 722,500. How did he make this mistake?

Here's Camping's calculation paragraphs from his "Another Infallible Proof":
Because of the importance and wonder of this proof we will take time to develop it. First we must learn that we can develop with perfect precision the number of days from one date to another. To obtain the precise number of days from a moment in one year to the same moment in any other year we must realize that astronomers have long ago discovered that there are 365.2422 days in a complete year. That is why in our modern calendar there are 365 days in each of three consecutive years. However, every fourth year has 366 days. This is done by adding an extra day in February of that year. Thus the average year for the four years becomes 365.25 days. But .25 is greater than .2422, so every 128 years a day is dropped from the calendar to maintain accuracy.

Thus all we have to do is multiply the number of years separating two events by the number 365.2422 to know the exact number of days between them. So from April 1, 33 A.D. to April 1, 2011 there are exactly 2011 – 33 = 1,978 years, each having 365.2422 days. This equals 722,449.07 days. From April 1, 2011 to May 21, 2011 inclusively (including the first day and the last day) are 51 days. Adding these 51 days to the number 722,449.07 gives us exactly 722,500.07 days, from April 1, 33 A.D. to May 21, 2011 inclusively. This number is enormously significant. Presently we will see why this is so.

Camping has made a mistake. The number of days from April 1, 33, to April 1, 2011, is actually 722,451 days (not 722,449.07). What about his proof? His proof is based on an assumption that April 1, 33, to April 1, 2011, are exactly 1978 years apart, and that a year is 365.2422 days.

Camping's calculation allegedly provides the number of days as 722,449.07, although more precisely the number is 722,449.072. But there's a serious problem with the calculation. The number of days between April 1, 33, and April 1, 2011, is not a fractional number of days. It's an exact integer number of days. That's because the sun rises exactly once each day.

If you're not convinced, try a simple example: April 1, 2010, to April 1, 2011. Using Camping's method, that's one year, and consequently it is 365.2422 days. But, in fact, you can go get a calendar and count and verify that, in fact, it is exactly 365 days.

Also, keep in mind that the 365 number is based on counting only one of the two end days. This is the normal way of counting days. For example, we say that April 2 is one day from April 1. That's because we count only the last day (April 2) and not the first day (April 1). So, it is a little strange when Camping asks his readers to count 51 days based on counting both the first day and the last days ("From April 1, 2011 to May 21, 2011 inclusively (including the first day and the last day) are 51 days.")

Using this method means counting from April 1, 2010, to April 1, 2011, to be 366 days. Moreover, as we noted before, if one counts both the first and last days, the number of days from April 1, 33, to May 21, 2011, is actually 722,502 days.

It is also strange to see how some of his other calculations work:
Interestingly this same message of salvation or judgment being the result of the Gospel is hidden in the total number of years the Gospel was to be sent by the churches into the world. We have learned that the church age began immediately after Christ demonstrated how He suffered and died to make payment for sin. That was in the year 33 A.D. We learned that the church age officially began on Pentecost, May 22, 33 A.D. It continued exactly 1,955 full years until May 21, 1988 when the church age came to an end.
A few points. 1) Why are days counted with the first and last day both counted, whereas years are counted normally? Those familiar with Camping's work should recognize this kind of arbitrary hermeneutic - a hermeneutic of convenience, if you will.

2) 1955 "full years" according to his 365.2422 number would be 714,048.501 days.

2) But the actual number of days from May 22, 33 A.D. to May 21, 1988 is exactly 714,051 days (including the end date) - which is indeed 1955 full years (including the end date).

Why April 1? According to Camping, April 1, 33 A.D. is when Christ was hanging on the cross, reminding people of the sacrifice he had already made before the foundation of the world.

However, April 1, 33 A.D. was a Wednesday, as you can see in the calculation results already discussed and as you can calculate for yourself (just enter month "4", day "1", and year "0033".

Incidentally, some programs may tell you that April 1, 33, was a Friday (input "4", "1" and "0033" here, for example), but if you look more closely, you will see that these are programs that are using a Gregorian calendar (back before the Gregorian calendar was even invented).

Incidentally, I suspect that this two days (of the week) difference is connected with the two-day error in Camping's calculations, but I am not sure.

- TurretinFan

17 comments:

Coram Deo said...

That's his engineering training creeping in. Ultimately an engineer fabricates whatever is required to make his system work in practice as he's envisioned that it should work in theory.

Incidentally, as anyone knows who's worked with engineers, this predictable vocational tendency typically results in cost overruns and delays.

Perhaps this explains why Mr. Camping is reliably a day late and a dollar short.

In Christ,
CD

donsands said...

Say What?

That is so far over my head, my brain ain't no way gonna take that in.

"You also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect."-Luke 12:40

But I understand this truth for my Savior. He says that He may indeed come back in a couple weeks, and if He does, "Are you ready?"

I am. In fact, I hope He does return. Yet, my heart is heavy for those who need Christ; who need repentance and faith in Jesus.

Have a terrific Lord's Day!

Sellman said...

Was that Apr 1, 33 on the julian calendar or the gregorian (which did not exist at that time)? Isn't there ten days difference between the two calendars? Also are years divisable by 100 not leap years in the gregorian calendar except years divisable by 400? Has anyone considered this problem yet?

natamllc said...

Well, quite interestingly, I hope natural life ends as we know it on either date!

We would then be through with Camping and other bothers and burdens and yokes and loads!


1Th 5:14 And we urge you, brothers, admonish the idle, encourage the fainthearted, help the weak, be patient with them all.
1Th 5:15 See that no one repays anyone evil for evil, but always seek to do good to one another and to everyone.
1Th 5:16 Rejoice always,
1Th 5:17 pray without ceasing,
1Th 5:18 give thanks in all circumstances; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you.
1Th 5:19 Do not quench the Spirit.
1Th 5:20 Do not despise prophecies,
1Th 5:21 but test everything; hold fast what is good.
1Th 5:22 Abstain from every form of evil.
1Th 5:23 Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
1Th 5:24 He who calls you is faithful; he will surely do it.
1Th 5:25 Brothers, pray for us.

Pilgrimsarbour said...

April 1, 33, to April 1, 1978, are exactly 1978 years apart

I don't get it. How can 33 A.D. to 1978 A.D. be 1978 years? Wouldn't one subtract 33 from 1978 and get 1945 years, give or take for "extra" days and such?

Pilgrimsarbour said...

Oh, never mind. I see you fixed it to read April 1, 2011.

Boy, that really threw me!

Pilgrimsarbour said...

Oh wait...you dropped the 1978 years figure all together!

Whaaaaaaaa?

I'm losing my mind...

natamllc said...

If I am not mistaken, when we count, we should count exactly as God does?

He told Moses, which parenthetically applies to all of Jesus' predictions as recorded in the Gospels, this is the first day of the first month to you and you should count x y z days so that these things reoccur!

Exo 12:1 The LORD said to Moses and Aaron in the land of Egypt,
Exo 12:2 "This month shall be for you the beginning of months. It shall be the first month of the year for you.
Exo 12:3 Tell all the congregation of Israel that on the tenth day of this month every man shall take a lamb according to their fathers' houses, a lamb for a household.

...

Exo 12:14 "This day shall be for you a memorial day, and you shall keep it as a feast to the LORD; throughout your generations, as a statute forever, you shall keep it as a feast.
Exo 12:15 Seven days you shall eat unleavened bread. On the first day you shall remove leaven out of your houses, for if anyone eats what is leavened, from the first day until the seventh day, that person shall be cut off from Israel.
Exo 12:16 On the first day you shall hold a holy assembly, and on the seventh day a holy assembly. No work shall be done on those days. But what everyone needs to eat, that alone may be prepared by you.
Exo 12:17 And you shall observe the Feast of Unleavened Bread, for on this very day I brought your hosts out of the land of Egypt. Therefore you shall observe this day, throughout your generations, as a statute forever.
Exo 12:18 In the first month, from the fourteenth day of the month at evening, you shall eat unleavened bread until the twenty-first day of the month at evening.
Exo 12:19 For seven days no leaven is to be found in your houses. If anyone eats what is leavened, that person will be cut off from the congregation of Israel, whether he is a sojourner or a native of the land.


God is very specific on the days and counting. Wasn't the count 29 days or a lunar cycle and by the witness of two sightings of the sliver of the new moon the next sequence of 29 days were counted out so that the annual counting conformed to that that is laid out there cited above at Exodus 12? And, following this model, some years would have thirteen months of 29 days instead of twelve!

So any other form or model, the Julian or Gregorian counts and calendars seems to fall off the cliff in my view and therefore, unless we can with absolute assurance and authority know that we have that Exodus count accurately we are left with no other option to live by than this one, "one of waiting and hastening", as Peter taught already, here:::>

2Pe 3:8 But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.
2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed.
2Pe 3:11 Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of people ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness,
2Pe 3:12 waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be set on fire and dissolved, and the heavenly bodies will melt as they burn!
2Pe 3:13 But according to his promise we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

Pilgrimsarbour said...

I've reposted a short story I wrote last year on this very subject, with a few minor changes, if anyone is interested:

http://the-porters-lodge.blogspot.com/2011/05/answer.html

PeaceByJesus said...

Glad to see you reproving this esoteric eschatologist, with his any-digit-will-do hermeneutic.

I was moved to supply a refutation of Camping a while ago also
here

The grievous reality is that in an age of increasing skepticism of any authority, and attacks on the Bible, Camping is giving them more fodder for their cannons. The media likes it as he is the eschatological version of Fred Phelps.

And the dedication of Camping's congregation, and their effectiveness at getting his non-sense out to great numbers is telling. We wish we saw more of such zeal among ourselves.

But like other cults, Camping claims to hold to Sola Scriptura, but in reality he positions himself as the supreme authority, as does Rome, to the detriment of many.

As your diligent calculations attest, Camping is off even according to his numerical premise, and come May 22, we can expect him to go back to reworking them to keep his rebellion going.

Talmidin said...

Beyond the fact that "No man knows the day or the hour" making Mr. Camping out of his tree. The calendar premise is wrong, since the Hebrews, as well as most other cultures of the time, used a LUNAR calendar. Even the modern Jewish calendar doesn't correlate exactly with the ancient calendar. On average, the moon revolves around the Earth in about 29½ days. The Earth revolves around the sun in about 365¼ days, that is, about 12.4 lunar months. a 12-month lunar calendar is about 11 days shorter than a solar year and a 13-month lunar is about 19 longer than a solar year. The first month was determined by the new moon after barley was seen in the ear (abib). So the year didn't end until after the barley came out. The months did not have names either. So Mr. Camping you need to get out your calculator again. No matter what, you'd still be wrong.

Kendall said...

Everyone on here should try to call in to his show and ask him about his wacked out ways of interpreting the Scripture. I called and asked about his spiritual reading of Gen. 7:4 and 2 Peter 3:8. The discussion was edited out of his Open Forum archive. When i called to ask if they edit that show, the person who answered the phone said she did not know. I asked her if she could connect me with someone who would know and she said she didn't know who would know that....

PeaceByJesus said...

"Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. {11} I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain. " (Galatians 4:10-11)

While this applies to going back into Jewish ritualism, what Camping effects is not a looking to Christ in His return, but a focus upon knowing the time of His coming.

This actually works contrary to the pursuit of holiness which he charges the visible church lacks, as not knowing when He may return should move souls to seek salvation, and then always seek to find find approval with Christ at His coming by actively seeking His kingdom and righteousness in practical ways, and abiding in Him (2Cor. 5:9,10; 1Jn. 2:28)

In contrast, if one know that the Lord would not return until an exact time he might be inclined to a lack of watchfulness.

Campingnites could rightly counter that knowing the exact day should move souls to pursuit of Christ. However, if a prediction of the exact day of His coming turns out to be false then it impugns upon the very doctrine of Christ's return in general, let alone precise ones.

It is one thing for a trumpet to make an uncertain sound, such as if the Lord would not return, or whether what is predicted is the word of God or speculation, and another to raise a false report. And both of which Camping has already done, by predicting that the Lord would not return prior to May 21, and also making some contradictory statements that he may be wrong about that date (and preparing for future ministry).

All in all, Camping is convicted by the law of being an impenitent transgressor. "Thou shalt not raise a false report: put not thine hand with the wicked to be an unrighteous witness. " (Exodus 23:1)

And i want to show more gratitude and give more glory to Jesus before His coming myself, as i come much short of that.

Turretinfan said...

Of course, the number of days doesn't depend on what calendar one uses.

Turretinfan said...

What I mean by that is that solar days are the measure of days in every calendar system. Thus, the number of days from an event until any given days maybe a different number of months or years, depending on your calendar, but it will be the same number of days.

natamllc said...

TF:

"...Thus, the number of days from an event until any given days maybe a different number of months or years, depending on your calendar, but it will be the same number of days."

Because of those words I want to comment on an overarching idea that the Holy Spirit has communicated through the Scriptures to produce a new "lifestyle" mindset among those upon whom the ends of the ages has come.

We read in Exodus, this:

Exo 12:1 The LORD said to Moses and Aaron in the land of Egypt,
Exo 12:2 "This month shall be for you the beginning of months. It shall be the first month of the year for you.
Exo 12:3 Tell all the congregation of Israel that on the tenth day of this month every man shall take a lamb according to their fathers' houses, a lamb for a household.

...


Exo 12:41 At the end of 430 years, on that very day, all the hosts of the LORD went out from the land of Egypt.
Exo 12:42 It was a night of watching by the LORD, to bring them out of the land of Egypt; so this same night is a night of watching kept to the LORD by all the people of Israel throughout their generations.
Exo 12:43 And the LORD said to Moses and Aaron, "This is the statute of the Passover: ...".



There were several reoccurring festivals and observances enacted through Moses that these "holy people" were to keep annually throughout each year in their generations. In order to keep them according to the Word of the Lord, there had to be someone of the people given the responsibility for "watching" or counting through their generations and particularly during the "end" of the twelfth month so the Spring harvest could begin. As it approached they went to see if there was going to be a thirteenth month so the Passover could be kept according to the count of days on that particular new beginning of months each year.

Some years, because of the immaturity of the grain they had to add an additional month of 29 days so some years in passing there were 13 months and not twelve a year. The months of the year were determined by the maturity of the grain to be harvested during the Spring harvest. If the grain was ready the harvest began and a new count began after the twelfth month. The count began on the sighting of the sliver of the new moon of the new month of the new year. Then days and weeks and months could be counted out to start the "new year" festival occurrences coming forth to conform to God's Word.

Now that Christ has come, (Who ended the Law practices), becoming the final Passover the Passover was no longer necessary.

The "watching" lifestyle now changed to a "hastening" lifestyle.

We don't know "when" the day of the Lord will come only that on that day when it comes the present heavens and earth will be no more.

Now we "have the privilege" to pray to God hallowing His Name, the Name True Believers are given upon being born again and "elected" and "called"; and, now, daily, we are privileged to receive from God our portion in this present life, what God gives us to eat, drink and wear. This allotment is a part of our Eternal Inheritance. We live by Faith not by sight or circumstance. God has assigned to us, who now bear His Name, i.e., the Church, those born again made up of both Jews and Gentiles, the necessary things "we need" to live a holy and godly Life in Christ, daily, until we too, pass to our Eternal Glory in Christ.

Peter taught a new "sort" of "watching", which becomes "hastening", here:


2Pe 3:11 Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of people ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness,
2Pe 3:12 waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be set on fire and dissolved, and the heavenly bodies will melt as they burn!

Turretinfan said...

"Was that Apr 1, 33 on the julian calendar or the gregorian (which did not exist at that time)?"

Possibly his system would work if the Gregorian calendar were back-numbered to that time.

"Isn't there ten days difference between the two calendars? Also are years divisable by 100 not leap years in the gregorian calendar except years divisable by 400? Has anyone considered this problem yet?"

Those things are taken into account by the calculator program, and are "sort of" taken into account by Camping's technique. He's trying to use the mathematical formula rather than actually counting the days.

-TurretinFan