All of us have received spiritual or material riches meant to be used for the fulfilment of God's plan, for the good of the Church and for our personal salvation.(Benedict XVI via Vatican Information Service, 7 February 2012)
By contrast, we believe that salvation is entirely of the Lord. We teach that it is all of God. God is both the author and finisher of our salvation.
Hebrews 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
Christ is the alpha and the omega, the beginning and end:
Revelation 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
Don't get me wrong. Good works are important, as the pope quoted, the Scriptures say:
Hebrews 10:24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
Yet it is not by those works that we are saved. As it is written:
Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
2 Timothy 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Amen, and praise the Lord for his mercy and grace, which endure forever.
-TurretinFan
41 comments:
Sanctification is a work of God's free grace...
Even our works, meritless though they be, are of grace.
Amen both justification and sanctification is by God's grace through faith. These two doctrines are grossly distorted by Roman Catholicism. A good treatment on justification and good works is found in the work The Principles Of Theology : An Introduction To The Thirty-Nine Articles by Dr. W.H. Griffith Thomas.
I am not a Roman Catholic by any means, but if I may play the Devil's advocate: Is it possible he was referring to salvation in the form of sanctification? I would say that gifts that God the Holy Spirit gives us are part of the means He uses to build up the saints.
Dan,
The distinction you make has meaning, here! Sanctification, the kind of sanctification the Holy Spirit produces through our life after being saved, our salvation, as a fruit of His, is just that, a fruit of His He (the Holy Spirit) produces in us, not a sanctification we produce claiming it as ours.
Is sanctification a necessary fruit of our salvation? Yes. The yes answer may have just a bit of time on earth when it is experienced before our death to manifest as in the reality one comes too when we consider and understand the sanctifying request the thief on the cross gave in asking Jesus for His assistance to get him from where he was to where Jesus was going, to paradise on his behalf, apparently, too.
Luk 23:42 And he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom."
It is a sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit that we see that produced that request! This man could not, on his own, have come to this understanding the work of Christ Christ was doing for him. It was the work of the Holy Spirit, that sanctification work, as Peter identifies it, ( see 1 Peter 1:2) that was at work producing the fruit of sanctification in his being that produced that request to Jesus Christ!
It is the same work of the Holy Spirit, not our own, a monergistic work, not a synergistic work, as the RCC religious practice produces, that sanctifies us as well!
I would point you to a verse for consideration and to ponder and think about to realize that the fruit of justification and sanctification is solely a work of the Spirit and not required of man so that when you see a man justified and sanctified you can rest that they did not, of their own self, produce such salvation fruits (justification and sanctification). The fruits, justification and sanctification are the product of the person's salvation. Salvation comes first from God. Justification and Sanctification follow after and therefore we know they are saved by their fruits not the other way around.
Here's the verse I advise you ponder so as to realize "who" is doing what to who and for who?:
Rom 8:13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
To the question, "Does the Pope teach works salvation?"
Yes!
Dan: No, I don't think that's probable.
Dan asked,
"Is it possible he was referring to salvation in the form of sanctification?"
No, since the Pope, being a good Roman Catholic, conflates the concepts of justification and sanctification and teaches a form of "progressive justification" -- whereby believers are in the process of "being made righteous" throughout their entire life, and whose good works will be rewarded with "final justification" on the last day. To the best of my knowledge, justification can also be "regressive" in Roman Catholic theology, being forfeited altogether in those who drift too far into sin and unbelief.
Could you please point me to where in the Bible you see final salvation as totally independent of works, or that works have no role in cooperating with God's grace in our salvation? The verses provided above and in the comment box are all in the past tense--describing us already having been brought into the grace of God by no merit of our own. Since the Bible speaks of future salvation as well, (1 Peter 1:2; 2 Tim 2:11-12, etc), where does it say that is by faith alone?
Ryan:
Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
-TurretinFan
TurretinFan:
Philippians 1:6 shows we can have confident hope that God will continue His work in us until the day of Christ Jesus, but it is irrelevant to what I asked. Are we saved, finally, by "faith working through love" (what the Pope believes; Gal 5:6) or by "faith alone"? I agree with you that Phil 1:6 shows it is indeed God who saves us, but I ask for your biblical evidence that that final--not previous--salvation is independent of our works. You've also demonstrated initial salvation is due to no merit of our own with those verses.
Just in case you deny that salvation can be thought of in the past, present, and future tenses:
Past -- the verses you have already offered.
Present -- We are "being saved" 1 Cor 1:18; 2 Cor 2:15; Phil 2:12
Future -- "he who stands firm to the end WILL BE SAVED" (Matthew 24:13); see also 2 Tim 2:11-12; Heb 9:28
For the record, I do not deny initial salvation is without "works" in the sense that we merit the grace by which we are made children of God.
Ryan:
Perhaps you haven't seen the significance of the verse that I was trying to bring out.
The point of the passage is that God will finish what he started. He started it through divine action and he will finish it through divine action.
On top of that, the rationale of Ephesians 2:9 would be turned on its head if "lest any man should boast" referred only to "initial salvation" and not "final salvation."
You appeal to the expression "faith which works by love." Yet even in that passage, it is faith, not the works, that are being contrasted to circumcision.
Ryan,
with great trepidation I would like to gingerly jump in here and offer some other eyes on this exchange between you and TurrentinFan.
I would point to three portions of Scripture.
One focuses on the "work" of the Holy Spirit, separate from the "work" of the Others.
One focuses on the "work" of Jesus in this process of our position before Him as one saved, being saved and ultimately because of being saved our place that we will enter into at our passing from this life is secured for us by His work.
One focuses on the "work" of Our Heavenly Father, what He is doing and why He does it.
You remember Jesus Himself, as recorded in the Gospel of John, 5:17, said, His Father is working and He is working.
Here are the three portions of Scripture hopefully that illustrates my intent in responding to your inquiries.
One: Rom 15:13 May the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so that by the power of the Holy Spirit you may abound in hope.
Two: Php 3:20 But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ,
Php 3:21 who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself.
Three:1Pe 5:10 And after you have suffered a little while, the God of all grace, who has called you to his eternal glory in Christ, will himself restore, confirm, strengthen, and establish you.
1Pe 5:11 To him be the dominion forever and ever. Amen.
There is a context to each of these portions of Scripture, to be sure. What I would point too is the "work" each of these are doing understanding Their objective in Their "work" and the object to whom They are doing what the verses indicate They are doing.
The Holy Spirit is assisting us in staying filled with "hope" in joy and peace "in believing", by "His power". He is continually filling me up with joy and peace in believing so I can abound in hope in His power and not my own.
Jesus, by that power that enables Him to subject all things to Himself is transforming our lowly body to be like His glorious body! The husband and wife are "One". Wow, what hope fills my soul especially after I fall prey to some condemnation either from a man or spirit!
Finally, this one is the most poignant of the three, for me, in that this is the Apostle Peter making a direct connection with Our Heavenly Father that He Himself by His promise will restore, confirm, strengthen and establish us having called into His eternal glory in Christ! Wow, God Himself, understood through the Apostle Peter's epistle, makes His own personal appeal and promise to us that He Himself will do something to us and for us because we are His!
These truths just go to underscore what Jesus was getting at, here, with these Words found in the Gospel of John, chapter 10 :
Joh 10:22 At that time the Feast of Dedication took place at Jerusalem. It was winter,
Joh 10:23 and Jesus was walking in the temple, in the colonnade of Solomon.
Joh 10:24 So the Jews gathered around him and said to him, "How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly."
Joh 10:25 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me,
Joh 10:26 but you do not believe because you are not part of my flock.
Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.
Joh 10:28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.
Joh 10:29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
Joh 10:30 I and the Father are one."
Are you thereby saying that good works after our justification before GOD are meriterious in order to maintain our present and future salvation?
I looked up 2 Tim 2:11-12 that you cited but I do not see the word salvation or will be saved in it. Heb 9:28 refers to believer being delivered from the presense of sin at the second coming of Jesus. Our future salvation in that verse is directly tied with the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ by His offering took away their sin. Thusby His blood they will be saved. Believers are therefore awaiting Jesus apart from their sin and await for Jesus. Matt 24:13 is not a reference to spiritual salvation of the human soul but rather the physical deliverance of the Elect in the context of the passage from physical death and judgement in the light of verse 22 in the same passage and enter the start of the " kingdom on the earth " which we find discussed in Matt. 25:31-24. It describes something that will happen. It is not laying down a claimed condition of good works in order to be delivered from the presense of sin. As far as Matthew 25 which many Arminians and Semi-Pelagians bring up that chapter basically has good works as the fruit of true saving fait in Jesus Christ. Good works are the fruit of faith in Jesus Christ as empowered by the Holy Spirit in the lives of believers. I left out some details of Matthew 24 to 25 that relate to specific points relating to eschatology . Since those passages are debated by such views as futuristic, historical and partial preterist views relating to the exact eschatological details on it. I dealt with the main point.
1 Peter 1:3-5 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
When Benedict means salvation, he means salvation. When he means sanctification, he means sanctification. He chooses his words carefully. It's just awful to see how they lead people away from the Word of God & into error
In RCC theology the doctrine of regeneration, justification and sanctification are merged together and not distinct. In the process it ends up confusing the biblical teaching on each of those things.
"If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing."
Shouldn't there be a verse that says final salvation is totally independent of our works (our cooperation with ever-prevenient grace)? No one has attempted to offer it; I do recognize the arguments stemming from other ideas, but they simply are unconvincing. "Being confident" that God will continue His work (Phil 1:6) does NOT necessarily logically entail that final salvation is independent of our works. That is an erroneous conclusion to make.
Mental gymnastics are required, however, to get around many other verses that DO speak about works being an important part of our final salvation:
"He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life...glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good... the doers of the law who will be justified" (Romans 2; Notice Paul sets this up so he can say soon that no one will be justified by works of the law.. we are justified, finally, by works of the heart. I assume the argument here is that we are 'reckoned' as having sought glory and honor and immortality because of Christ's active obedience imputed to us. But that is actually not what the verse says, and active obedience is MUCH more difficult to show from the Bible.)
"But let each one test HIS OWN WORK, and then his reason to boast will be IN HIMSELF ALONE and not in his neighbor." (Galatians 6:4)
"Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption; but he who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. And let us not grow weary in well-doing, for in due season we shall reap, IF we do not lose heart" (Galatians 6:7-9)
> This is clearly speaking of final salvation in the sense of eternal life versus damnation (NOT a future doling out of gifts to the elect already saved). Those who cooperate with the Spirit ('sows to the Spirit') inherit eternal life. Those who do not suffer corruption. We have a choice and responsibility in the matter: "If by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body you will live" (Romans 8:13). We must cooperate with the Spirit and put to death the deeds of the body.
"IF we endure with him, we will reign with him" (2 Tim 2:12; Endurance is a work, a cooperation with grace)
And there are many, many more. My point is largely that to deny our own cooperative works have a place in our final salvation (eternal life / damnation) is NOT clear from the Bible. To take these verses and re-interpret them as not speaking about our works having a role is to totally disregard their meaning.
For the early Church Fathers' views of whether we are justified by faith alone or faith and works, see http://www.scripturecatholic.com/salvation.html#tradition-I.
"I hope you’ll come worship with us soon! :) Please know that I am praying that we will one day share a common worship in the Catholic Church."
True biblical worship is not found in Roman Catholicism. I personally find it's modified form of semi-pelagianism as heretical . The Catholic Church is not defined in terms of Roman Catholicism. Just because the RCC claims it is does not make it so. The system of Roman Catholicism is anti-Jesus plain and simple in it's doctrines.
"And there are many, many more. My point is largely that to deny our own cooperative works have a place in our final salvation (eternal life / damnation) is NOT clear from the Bible. To take these verses and re-interpret them as not speaking about our works having a role is to totally disregard their meaning."
Good works are not meriterious. That is the basic issue here. The RCC claims that our good works have merit to them. The basic confusion lies in the RCC merging of justification which relates to our positional standing and sanctification which relates to our present state . The position you stated here is that of semi-pelagianism. You are saying our salvation is a work of God and the active work of man by God's grace in order to merit salvation by faith and works. Your proof text do not teach the things you claim. I am also certian you are not aware of the postion that you disagree with on this point. Before claiming " reinterpretation of verses " make sure you know what those claimed reinterpretations are instead of saying something out of ignorance. What is clear in Scripture is the fact that God's elect whom God foreknew and predestined are to be called, justified and glorified in Rom. 8:28-30. Each of those links is the work of God alone in it's outworking. Good works do not merit anything for anyone . Good works are just the fruit of true saving faith in Jesus in the Christian. I also laughed at the link you left of the church fathers on justification. It oddly left out statements which contradicts the RCC position. You listed it as " early church fathers " . The RCC reads back to the church fathers present day RCC doctrines at all cost. Even at the expense of changing what the church fathers really taught.
ChaferDTS,
Please provide Scripture that shows final salvation is independent of works and cooperation, or that good works after baptism are never meritorious. Those are big claims, and no one in these comments has attempted to provide Scripture to support the claims.
"Please provide Scripture that shows final salvation is independent of works and cooperation, or that good works after baptism are never meritorious. Those are big claims, and no one in these comments has attempted to provide Scripture to support the claims. "
I do not exactly understand the first part of your question. In progressive sanctification I hold to God's sovereign grace through faith. That in our daily lives Christians make divinely enabled choices. True faith always has good works as the fruit of one's salvation. I do not hold to baptism regeneration so the second part of your question is out of place with what I personally believe. Acts 15:1;6-11 provides a sound refutation of ordinaces as being essential or necessary in order to be saved or justified before God. As far as good works being meriterious after our justification before God the burden of proof lies with you since you are the one who holds them to be meriterious. What you are doing is called shifting the burden of proof. For the present sense of salvation which deals with being delivered from the power of sin your claim of good works as merit is contradicted by such passages as John 17:17; Rom 6:14; 8:2; Gal 5:16 and Phil 2:12-13. For the future sense of salvation which refers to being delivered from the presence of sin your position is refuted by such passages as Rom 13:11; Eph 2:25-27, Phil. 1:6; 1 Pet. 1:2-5 and 1 John 3:1-2. None of them teaches or affirms the concepts of our good works as being meriterious . I hold to the view that " It is by faith alone which justifies, and yet the faith which justifies is not alone " . The basic error of Roman Catholicism is it incorrectly merges justification and sanctification. The truth of the matter is that justification and sanctification distinct and yet inseparable. Just because you claim no one answered you does not make it so. You were provided an answer. Just because you reject it does not mean no one has attempted to answer you. I find that to be either as you lying or you self deceived and brainwashed yourself in to denial mode.
ChaferDTS,
There is no shifting of the burden of proof. This is a blog for Reformed apologetics. I have seen Scripture here that shows there is a past-tense element of salvation that is "apart from works," which I accept. I have pointed to several verses that seem to say works have an important role in our final justification, and I ask that you point me to Scripture that shows final salvation is indeed independent of any work--either good works being meritorious unto eternal life or bad works deserving hell.
Acts 15 is more about the inclusion of Gentiles into the new covenant community, "having cleansed their hearts by faith" (v. 9). I ask where, in the face of seemingly contrary Scripture (given earlier in posts and reposted here), you believe this initial cleansing of the heart by faith is enough to attain final salvation. "But we believe that we will be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they will" (v.11). We "WILL BE SAVED" shows there is a final salvation not realize in the initial cleansing by faith. But, interestingly, the writer does not say that we will be saved, finally, by faith, but by grace. Catholics and Protestants alike believe we are saved initially, presently, and finally by grace alone. My question is about final salvation and faith alone. These verses do not say we are saved, finally, through faith alone.
As I wrote earlier:
"He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life...glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good... the doers of the law who will be justified" (Romans 2; Notice Paul sets this up so he can say soon that no one will be justified by works of the law.. we are justified, finally, by works of the heart. I assume the Reformed argument here is that we are 'reckoned' as having sought glory and honor and immortality because of Christ's active obedience imputed to us. But that is actually not what the verse says on its face value. In fact, it says the opposite--he will render TO EACH ONE according to HIS works)
"But let each one test HIS OWN WORK, and then his reason to boast will be IN HIMSELF ALONE and not in his neighbor." (Galatians 6:4)
"Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption; but he who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. And let us not grow weary in well-doing, for in due season we shall reap, IF we do not lose heart" (Galatians 6:7-9)
> This is clearly speaking of final salvation in the sense of eternal life versus damnation (NOT a future doling out of gifts to the elect already saved). Those who cooperate with the Spirit ('sows to the Spirit') inherit eternal life. Those who do not suffer corruption. We have a choice and responsibility in the matter: "If by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body you will live" (Romans 8:13). We must cooperate with the Spirit and put to death the deeds of the body.
Again, I do not think by posing a question on a Reformed apologetics webpage I have shifted the burden of proof.
Furthermore, ChaferDTS:
You say, "[Y]our claim of good works as merit is contradicted by such passages as John 17:17; Rom 6:14; 8:2; Gal 5:16 and Phil 2:12-13." Let's look at these:
John 17:17: "Sanctify them in the truth; your word is truth." >> This implies nothing about merit..
Romans 6:14: "For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace." >> Why cannot one merit under grace? We will "JUDGED under the law of liberty" (James 2:12), and along with the verses I point out, that is perfectly compatible with merit.
Romans 8:2: For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death" >> Again, nothing about merit, except that this verse might contribute to the notion that we are capable of meritorious works after regeneration.
Gal 5:17: "But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do." >> How does this relate to merit? It says what I have already pointed out, that believers have an obligation to choose between the Spirit and the flesh, and there are eternal consequences to that cooperation (Galatians 6:7-9)
Phil 2:12-13: "Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure." Future salvation must be worked out by us as God works in us... synergism is the plain meaning. To read this in a monergistic way is to ignore its plain meaning. Again, however, this might provide evidence for the view that our final judgment is dependent upon our cooperation. What it definitely does not show is that works have no place in our eternal life.
You also say, "None of them teaches or affirms the concepts of our good works as being meriterious [sic]." I believe the verses I've already provided do seem to imply merit for our good works after regeneration and that these good works have an important role in our eternal destiny. Once again, you have not provided any contrary evidence.
Hi Ryan,
Jesus is undoubtedly the best answer to your question. Read John 6:37-40, therein Jesus describes God the Father's plan for salvation, totally devoid of any works of man.
And you are right about the the Bible and future salvation. I think theologians talk about this as the "already/not yet" distinction. Because God is not bound by time, his salvific work is necessarily finished even while time proceeds through His creation.
Peace.
Natamllc,
No problem for the intrusion at all. I was hoping someone would provide some Scripture. Unfortunately the verses you bring up do not answer the question... I've still seen nothing that says final salvation is independent of works.
You say: "There are only two ways to "attain" to God's Righteousness and preserved alive in this life. The one way is the weak way, the way of the flesh, by which no man is justified by the Law of Righteousness and preserved alive; and two, the only other way a human can be justified righteous before a Just God, Who sent Jesus as the Way, the Truth and the Life of Christ so as to be preserved alive until death to enter into the fullness of Eternal Life. He is the sole Human Way of Righteousness before God in human nature and experience in this temporal life to get us out of here alive into the Eternal Promised Land."
I agree on a surface level, that no man is brought into a relationship and right-standing with God by his own works. Christ merited that. Christ merited the grace we all receive and merited our entire salvation. But, it seems you think of this as a dichotomy that doesn't exist. Just because we can't enter into that initial relationship with God on our own does not mean that after regeneration we can still do no good by God's grace working in us, and that if we fail to do good (to cooperate with grace), we will not inherit eternal life.
Perfectly compatible with the verses you listed (that do NOT even attempt to show we are finally justified by faith alone) is this view:
I. No one merits the grace of justification; no man is justified by the law of Moses or any good works before regeneration.
II. God's grace regenerates man, though man has to respond to that grace ("Behold, I stand at the door and knock. IF ANYONE HEARS MY VOICE AND OPENS THE DOOR, I will come in to him and eat with him and he with me" Rev 3:20)
III. We have a responsibility to live by the Spirit and cooperate with grace--ALL BY GRACE--to endure to the end of our lives (Romans 8:13).
IV. We are justified, finally, by faith working through love. We can never strictly merit eternal life, but if we do not cooperate with grace we will not receive eternal life. That's what a good work is--a work of love in cooperation with grace.
"He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life...glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good" (Romans 2)
"Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption; but he who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. And let us not grow weary in well-doing, for in due season we shall reap, IF we do not lose heart" (Galatians 6:7-9)
"The one who conquers, I will grant him to sit with me on my throne, as I also conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne." Rev 3:21
I think this is a much more coherent way of understanding the New Testament. Righteousness can never come from another source than Christ, but it is an organic righteousness we cooperate with, that truly changes us and makes us children of God capable of loving and entering into eternal life. It's all by grace, all merited by Christ, but we participate in it.
"If I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing." 1 Cor 6
Ryan
Sorry, wrong reference, 1 Cor 13.
I really think the issue here is Rome's synergism. Therefore, when we talk about cooperation of grace, I would bring up Romans 9:
Romans 9:16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.
Remember, this is in the context of the destinies of Jacob and Esau "before they were born or had done anything good or evil." In fact, this same passage talks about "vessels of wrath" and "vessels of glory." In fact, the whole point of Romans 9 is to say that salvation is totally and wholly independent of man in the context of their eternal destinies. How can that not be final salvation?
As far as a text that teaches that final salvation is all of grace, I would take the entirety of Hebrews 10, but, imparticular, this passage:
Hebrews 10:10-14 By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11 And every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins; 12 but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, sat down at the right hand of God, 13 waiting from that time onward until His enemies be made a footstool for His feet. 14 For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.
It is by one offering of Christ that he perfects for all time. The problem with this concept of "cooperating with grace" is that this "grace" can perfect only one time, and then that perfection can be lost, to which you then need more grace to perfect you again, etc. The whole point of this passage in the book of Hebrews is that one once for all sacrifice perfects for all time. "For all time" would include the future and final salvation. If human cooperation were required to keep it going, then it would not be "for all time," and thus, there is no "cooperating" with grace.
God Bless,
Adam
Adam,
for me, I like what you have written and this "concept" comes to mind after reading what you posted hereon when thinking about Jesus when He makes some points similar to those from Hebrews from which you draw to make yours:
Joh 13:1 Now before the Feast of the Passover, when Jesus knew that his hour had come to depart out of this world to the Father, having loved his own who were in the world, he loved them to the end.
...
Joh 13:5 Then he poured water into a basin and began to wash the disciples' feet and to wipe them with the towel that was wrapped around him.
Joh 13:6 He came to Simon Peter, who said to him, "Lord, do you wash my feet?"
Joh 13:7 Jesus answered him, "What I am doing you do not understand now, but afterward you will understand."
Joh 13:8 Peter said to him, "You shall never wash my feet." Jesus answered him, "If I do not wash you, you have no share with me."
Joh 13:9 Simon Peter said to him, "Lord, not my feet only but also my hands and my head!"
Joh 13:10 Jesus said to him, "The one who has bathed does not need to wash, except for his feet, but is completely clean. And you are clean, but not every one of you."
The work of the Priesthood that was begun with Christ that produces thanksgiving continues to the very last day as His Priests find their place so that the Priesthood (men and women, boys and girls of His Faith) administers more and more Grace to the hearers as is indicated here:
2Co_4:15 For it is all for your sake, so that as grace extends to more and more people it may increase thanksgiving, to the glory of God.
As you must surely know, it is incumbent on the "brethren" to wash one another's feet in this life as we sojourn through it together?
Hebrews gives a classic example of this as does Romans and Galatians:
Heb 12:14 Strive for peace with everyone, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord.
Heb 12:15 See to it that no one fails to obtain the grace of God; that no "root of bitterness" springs up and causes trouble, and by it many become defiled;
Heb 12:16 that no one is sexually immoral or unholy like Esau, who sold his birthright for a single meal.
...
Rom 15:1 We who are strong have an obligation to bear with the failings of the weak, and not to please ourselves.
Rom 15:2 Let each of us please his neighbor for his good, to build him up.
Rom 15:3 For Christ did not please himself, but as it is written, "The reproaches of those who reproached you fell on me."
...
Gal 6:1 Brothers, if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Keep watch on yourself, lest you too be tempted.
Gal 6:2 Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ.
I would to God our work as Priests of that Priesthood that Christ inaugurated would assist Ryan in finding Peace with God and all men and he would excel in a lot more good works, even to the level that could exceed what we read about here:
2Co 11:22 Are they Hebrews? So am I. Are they Israelites? So am I. Are they offspring of Abraham? So am I.
2Co 11:23 Are they servants of Christ? I am a better one--I am talking like a madman--with far greater labors, far more imprisonments, with countless beatings, and often near death.
Hebrew Student:
Regarding Hebrews 10:14, it is not incompatible or incoherent to believe Christ perfected for all time those who are being sanctified AND that we must "grow up into salvation" (1 Peter 2:2). That verse must not mean that we are instantly perfected by Christ, because neither you nor I think we are currently perfect. You might interpret it as meaning we are, upon regeneration, clothed with the external righteousness of Christ. But that is a strange reading of the verse because we would both agree that the sacrifice of Christ is, ultimately, for our eternal salvation and sinlessness in heaven to the glory of God.
From the same chapter, I encourage you to look at verses 36-39. "For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God you may receive what is promised" (Hebrews 10:36). We must cooperate with grace to the end, lest we "shrink back and are destroyed" (Hebrews 10:39).
And I don't agree with that interpretation of Romans 9 as we continue to read in Romans, Paul continues to stress the need for human cooperation to maintain in God's grace: "Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, PROVIDED YOU CONTINUE IN HIS KINDNESS. Otherwise you too will be cut off." (Romans 11:22). The issue I am discussing is not predestination but whether the Bible teaches we are saved, finally, by faith alone.
Also, if you read carefully my writing, I too believe salvation is "all of grace." I deny that "all of grace" precludes human cooperation with God for much of the Scripture I have listed.
Natamllc,
My point is that the Bible seems to teach something against the Reformed system--that we cooperate with grace unto the end and that our cooperation is absolutely necessary for final salvation. There has not been a single verse given to me here that says otherwise. The question is significant: If I am wrong, my soul is imperiled. If those with Reformed conviction are wrong, they are separated from the Body of Christ on earth and (for the apologists) are fighting against the Roman Catholic Church.
"Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me [my Church]?" - Jesus
I conclude, as I did in my search for the Church, that Scripture does not say we are saved finally by faith alone through the imputed righteousness of Christ reckoned to our accounts, independent of our cooperation. The weight of Scriptural evidence is adamantly against it, and to hold to this view requires severe reinterpretation of many texts of Scripture.
Thank you all for your help. I pray we will rejoice with each other in Heaven.
Ryan
Ryan,
just so I am clear, are you of the RCC faith and practice?
Natamllc,
Yes, I am a convert from the Reformed tradition. I found Catholicism to be biblical Christianity.
But most of my arguments can be made by Protestants of the New Perspective on Paul camp who think the Reformers were wrong about Paul's writings.
In Christ,
Ryan
Ryan,
First of all, the point of Hebrews 10:14 is that our perfection is assured. It has been purchased on the cross of Calvary with the shed blood of the once for all sacrifice of Christ. Hence, there is a sense in which I am already perfect [Christ has secured this perfection for me], and a sense in which I will be perfect [when the finished work of Christ is fully applied to me]. However, the completion of that work has been made secure by once for all sacrifice of Christ. The emphasis here is on the permanence of the work of Christ on the cross, a permanence that has results for all time [something you deny]. That is utterly and completely incompatible with traditionalist Roman Catholic teaching.
Also, I question the assumptions you are bringing to this text. First, there is no doubt that we are in need of endurance. However, I don't trust in myself for that endurance. I trust in the finished work of Christ which has already purchased my perfection for all time. Second, the issue that is being addressed is shrinking back to the old way of repetitive sacrifices. Given the assumption of verses 1-14, we can see that all those whom Christ perfected for all time will not shrink back.
Secondly, I would like to question your understanding of Romans 11:22, by pointing out your background assumption. You assume that when the text says "if you continue in his kindness" that there is some kind of possibility that we will not continue in his kindness. However, given the background information in Romans 9, it is far more likely that this is a simple logical relationship. If we continue in his kindness, then God will be kind to us: If A then B. Therefore, if we understand Romans 9 as background information to this passage, then the only ones who will continue in God's kindness are the elect. Hence, the statement is true that those who continue in the kindness of God will experience his kindness. However, only the elect will continue in his kindness.
I would strongly question the assumptions you are bringing to all these "if/then" texts. You read these conditional statements as "it is possible that you won't do x, and thus, that you won't attain y," thus the need for cooperation with grace. Because of what Christ did for me on the cross, a true believer *will* do all of the things in all of the "if/then" passages you quoted, and thus *will* attain to the work of salvation, just as surely as a baseball *will* change direction because it is hit by a bat. The real question is, do passages like Romans 9 and Hebrews 10 show that there is only one thing upon which this perseverance depends: the work of Christ. That is the issue. If the answer is clearly "yes," then we must read the "if/then" passages in that light.
Hebrew Student,
1) You say: "I would strongly question the assumptions you are bringing to all these "if/then" texts. You read these conditional statements as "it is possible that you won't do x, and thus, that you won't attain y," thus the need for cooperation with grace"
To read "if/then" formulations in the Bible to mean: "if you endure, you will be saved, but you cannot help but endure as long as you ever had something to endure in (i.e. initial justification)" is strange. That is a huge assumption to work into many statements. If I graduate college, I will get my degree. Yes, and I have confident expectation that I will graduate, but I might get addicted to drugs and drop out. Why formulate it in such a way if there is absolutely no question as to my outcome?
2) You say: "Because of what Christ did for me on the cross, a true believer *will* do all of the things in all of the "if/then" passages you quoted, and thus *will* attain to the work of salvation, just as surely as a baseball *will* change direction because it is hit by a bat."
Interesting. This is incompatible, it seems, with the view argued by others here that initial justification is instantaneous and permanent. If we are imputed with the righteousness of Christ and cannot lose it, we have no law of love to fulfill (Romans 13), our salvation is independent of our putting to death the deeds of the flesh and sowing to the Spirit (Galatians 6:7-9), and endurance is a meaningless concept. Your argument is that God will necessarily fulfill all of our requirements for final salvation, which, strangely, admits that SOMETHING is necessary beyond initial justification (endurance, love, etc--whatever you want to call it). My question in this thread began asking for Scripture that final salvation would be independent of works, and the closest to an answer is this: final salvation is indeed dependent on more than initial justification, but God will necessarily, contractually, and without cooperation of the individual carry it out completely. There is still a law to fulfill, God just fulfills it in us without any of our working.
I pray people reading this thread might seek the Scriptures to see if that is biblical.
Ryan
Ryan,
That is a huge assumption to work into many statements. If I graduate college, I will get my degree. Yes, and I have confident expectation that I will graduate, but I might get addicted to drugs and drop out. Why formulate it in such a way if there is absolutely no question as to my outcome?
Right here is the heart of the debate. The reason why these if/then statements are given is in order to remind us that these things are necessary consequences of what God has done. They *must* be there. On the other hand, passages such as Romans 9 and Hebrews 10 tell us that these things do not come from our own power, but they come from what Christ has already done. The reason why I live the Christian life is because of what Christ did 2000 years ago.
Interesting. This is incompatible, it seems, with the view argued by others here that initial justification is instantaneous and permanent. If we are imputed with the righteousness of Christ and cannot lose it, we have no law of love to fulfill (Romans 13), our salvation is independent of our putting to death the deeds of the flesh and sowing to the Spirit (Galatians 6:7-9), and endurance is a meaningless concept. Your argument is that God will necessarily fulfill all of our requirements for final salvation, which, strangely, admits that SOMETHING is necessary beyond initial justification (endurance, love, etc--whatever you want to call it). My question in this thread began asking for Scripture that final salvation would be independent of works, and the closest to an answer is this: final salvation is indeed dependent on more than initial justification, but God will necessarily, contractually, and without cooperation of the individual carry it out completely. There is still a law to fulfill, God just fulfills it in us without any of our working.
I think you are confusing the roots of justification with the fruit of justification. The reason why these things are necessary is that they are the *logical result* of justification, and justification is necessary to enter heaven. Yes, those who are justified will be sanctified; there is no separating the two. Yes, initial justification is instantaneous and permanent, but it logically, with mathematical precision, produces certain fruits. If those fruits are not there, or there is no perseverance in those fruits, then, obviously, we can conclude that the justification never happened, and thus, we will not be saved. That is why we have all of the "if/then" clauses, because, if you do not have these fruits, then it is obvious that you were never justified to begin with.
Let me do a reductio on your argument from these if/then clauses. Take this passage from the Gospel of Matthew:
Matthew 12:27-28 "If I by Beelzebul cast out demons, by whom do your sons cast them out? For this reason they will be your judges. 28 "But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.
According to your logic, therefore, it is possible that Jesus casts out demons by Beelzebul, and it is possible that the kingdom of God has not come upon them. The problem is that the kind of implicatures you are drawing from if/then clauses can be defeated by background assumptions. Just as the possibility that Jesus casts out demons by Beelzebul is defeated by the background assumption that he is God incarnate, so the implicature that it is possible that all of those to whom the Biblical authors wrote these if/then statements could apostatize is likewise defeated by the background assumptions given in Romans 9 and Hebrews 10 that the only thing upon which final salvation depends is the God who has mercy and his work on the cross.
The purpose of these if/then statements is so that we will make our calling and election certain [2 Peter 1:10], and test ourselves to see if we are in the faith [2 Corinthians 13:5]. As I said, if the fruits do not exist, then neither does the initial and permanent justification.
"I think you are confusing the roots of justification with the fruit of justification. The reason why these things are necessary is that they are the *logical result* of justification, and justification is necessary to enter heaven. Yes, those who are justified will be sanctified; there is no separating the two. Yes, initial justification is instantaneous and permanent, but it logically, with mathematical precision, produces certain fruits. If those fruits are not there, or there is no perseverance in those fruits, then, obviously, we can conclude that the justification never happened, and thus, we will not be saved. That is why we have all of the "if/then" clauses, because, if you do not have these fruits, then it is obvious that you were never justified to begin with. "
I already pointing out that the essential error there is that the RCC merges justication and santification. The RCC utterly fails to see that the two are inseparable in fact, but that they are distingushable in thought. Justification before God relates to our standing while sanctification relates to our condition. The RCC basically denies the imputation of the righteousness of the Lord Jesus Christ to Christians and instead replaced it with a so called feeble infused righteousness. The tracing of the error of infused righteousness goes back to the RCC latin translation which is their offical authorized Bible. The Reformers were on solid ground on this point by going to the NT Greek text itself for the doctrine of justification. The weakness of the RCC position is seen in Cardial Newman's attempted exposition of Romans 4. That provided it's own self refutation. Hebrew Student I believe you can refute the RCC position basd on the OT Hebrew in Gen 15:6 . Plus the fact the apostle Paul cites it in Romans 4.
Something I thought would help out in this discussion. This I believe is a very proper understanding of the relationship between faith and works which brings forth Paul and James together.
The question of the harmony between St. Paul and St. James is one of great importance, and must, of course, be studied in all discussions of Justification, but there is no real difficulty if the two situations are made perfectly clear. (a) St. Paul in Rom. 4 is dealing with Abraham as recorded in Gen. 15:6 (cf. Gal. 3:6), and in that story Abraham is regarded as a man “justified by faith”. (b) St. James in ch. 2 is dealing with Abraham in regard to the story of Genesis 22 which happened twenty-five years afterwards. (c) If, then, Abraham in Gen. 15 was living by faith, his standing during those twenty-five years must have been in accordance therewith, and this we know was the case (Heb. 11:8–19). So that the two Apostles are dealing with different though related standpoints in the life of Abraham; the former referring to the instrument and the latter to the proof of Justification. St. Paul is writing about non-Christians (Rom. 3:28); St. James is writing about professing Christians (ch. 2:24). St. Paul uses Gen. 15 to prove the necessity of faith; St. James uses Gen. 22 to prove the necessity of works. St. Paul teaches that works must spring from faith; St. James teaches that faith must be proved by works. St. Paul is thus dealing with the error of legalism; St. James with the error of Antinomianism. St. Paul is warning against merit; St. James against a mere intellectual orthodoxy. Like every truth of the New Testament, Justification has various aspects. Thus, we are justified by God the Author (Rom. 4:5); by grace the reason (Rom. 3:24); by blood the ground (Rom. 5:9); by resurrection the acknowledgment (Rom. 4:25); by faith the means (Rom. 5:1); by words the evidence (Matt. 12:37); by works the fruit (Jas. 2:24). It has been aptly said, and the words sum up the whole contention, that St. Paul and St. James are not two soldiers of different armies fighting each other, but two of the same army fighting back to back against enemies coming from different directions. All this gives point to the well-known words of Calvin, “It is faith alone which justifies, and yet the faith which justifies is not alone.” ( The Principles of Theology An Introduction to the Thirty-Nine Articles, pg. 205-206, by Dr. W.H. Griffith Thomas )
A quick comment on this comment: "If I graduate college, I will get my degree. Yes, and I have confident expectation that I will graduate, but I might get addicted to drugs and drop out. Why formulate it in such a way if there is absolutely no question as to my outcome?"
The comparison is illustrative. People boast about their academic achievements all along. Even if they do not personally boast about it, people boast on their behalf, about all the hard work and perseverance they put it into it.
Such a view of salvation renders Ephesians 2:9 absurd - as though no one can boast only of being permitted to run the race - though everyone can boast if they finish the race. And yes, running a race is a metaphor for the Christian life, but not that way.
-TurretinFan
Thanks, Roger
turretinfan,
I knew that analogy of college would spur such a comment, and though the analogy is deficient it does show a scenario in which endurance is very probable but not absolutely guaranteed.
"For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure has come. I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. Henceforth there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will award to me on that Day, and not only to me but also TO ALL WHO HAVE LOVED HIS APPEARING." (2 Tim 4:6-8).
1) The crown of righteousness is dependent on love (not faith alone).
2) By your reasoning, Paul would be boasting sinfully in his own running the race! Did not God run the race for him without absolutely ANY cooperation on his part? Yet, Scripture attests that we are capable of some merit--though not merit in the strict sense, in that God is our debtor--in running the race (Galatians 6:4). We must run.
"But I discipline my body and keep it under control, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified." (1 Cor 9:27)
Hebrew Student,
Two comments:
If you eat of the tree, you shall surely die.
If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
(This will be my last comment on this website, partially because Hebrew Student has been the only one to really engage Scripture, but also because it's taking too much of my time.)
Ryan
Post a Comment