The Tridentine bishops were quite aware of 1 Clement, and did not consider, for example, Canon 9 or Canon 24 (of Session 6) to be contrary to St. Clement’s teaching on justification.I have asked Bryan what his evidence of this is. My guess is that he just made this up. After all, the council of Trent ended 1563, and the discovery of the text of 1 Clement was made in 1627, when Cyril Lucar gave Codex Alexandrinus to Charles I (see Thomas Herron's, "Clement and the Early Church of Rome," p. 4).
If Bryan provides some evidence to me, I'll happily post it up here, so that the reader can compare it to what Herron says.
I can't say what Bryan imagines in his own head, only that I'm not aware of any factual basis for his assertion. A lot of folks in Rome's communion imagine that the Tridentine fathers were eminent scholars who were intimately familiar with the fathers and were basing their views on a comprehensive understanding and appreciation of those works. That wasn't the case.
-TurretinFan
UPDATE: Bryan responded:
My mistake. I was going from memory. It was St. Hilary (along with some other Church Fathers) who was discussed during the Sixth Session. The point still stands, however, that the Tridentine bishops were well aware of Church Fathers who wrote about justification by faith.
So, the point wasn't really about the Tridentine Fathers thinking that 1 Clement was consistent with their teaching? Interesting. But what about the new claim?
Jedin states:
The Carmelite Vincent de Leone put the Fathers on their guard against a condemnation of the sola fide formula without supplementing it with an accurate explanation of its meaning, on the ground that it is also found, though in another sense, in the writings of many Fathers, for instance in those of St. Hilary of Poitiers, and in those of some other Catholic theologians.Hubert Jedin, A History of the Council of Trent, Volume 2, p. 245.
Is that the basis for Bryan's statement: “The point still stands, however, that the Tridentine bishops were well aware of Church Fathers who wrote about justification by faith”? Or is there something that shows a greater discussion and/or awareness on the part of the Tridentine fathers than that? I have asked Bryan. We will have to see what he's basing his new statement on.
8 comments:
It would seem Bryan should say:
The point still stands, however, that the Tridentine bishops were well aware of Church Fathers who wrote about justification by faith except for 1 Clement.
I still think the Bishops at Trent were also unaware of what Justin Martyr taught on justification either in his writings.
They will usually argue in circles about various church fathers did not have the same view as promoted by Trent.
I think it's reasonable to infer from Bryan's failure to respond to the follow-up question that he's not aware of what particular writings of Hilary they knew about, or of what writings of any of the other "fathers" they knew about.
I think the only writings that the Tridentine fathers were familiar with was the medieval theologians' and that they based their view on justification mostly on them. Then there are some like McGrath that state Trent legitimized a whole range of theologies of justification and therefore did not settle on one view or doctrine of justification.
A lot of folks in Rome's communion imagine that the Tridentine fathers were eminent scholars who were intimately familiar with the fathers and were basing their views on a comprehensive understanding and appreciation of those works. That wasn't the case.
Can you explain what you mean by this. Are you saying that the Tridentine bishops where ignorant of what the fathers wrote of justification or that they were aware but decided to disregard their consensus and advocate their novel view?
They were ignorant.
They weren't even that familiar with medieval scholarship.
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