Saturday, April 21, 2007

The Diary - A Challenge to FreeGrace and Godismyjudge

The Diary

Imagine with me that God, in his perfect omniscience were to write down on the 8th day of the world, a diary that stated for each day of all of time (from creation until the destruction of this world at the end of time, or whatever the end of this age is from your particular eschatalogical view), the events of the day. Presumably, if we accept the Roman Catholic tradition, the December 25, 4 B.C. entry would read: Jesus Christ was born. There would be an entry for September 11, 2001, that says that such-and-such a number of people were killed. And so on, and so forth.

The diary concept is simple. Hopefully it is intelligible. Every day has an entry, and the entry describes the events of the day in the past tense. Got it?

Now, let's suppose that God, being omnipotent and omniscient not only wrote an entry for every day, but included every event down to the last detail in this diary and completed the diary on the 8th day. Then, God took the diary and hid it somewhere we cannot find it. Still following?

Let's just, for the sake of the argument, assume that God wrote the diary based on his knowledge of what will happen. Let's not discuss HOW God had knowledge of what will happen. Hopefully that is not a tall order. It should be simple to grant that God had knowledge of what was going to happen, what is happening now (as you read this), and what will happen after you finish reading this.

For the sake of the argument, you are to suppose that God, for His own reasons, wrote down all of those events by carving diary entries into granite slabs that God specially created for this purpose.

Hopefully this scenario is clear up to this point in the post. If it is not, please feel free to explain why.

Now, imagine that there is a slab for April 10, 2010, and that slabs entry reads (in part): "Roe vs. Wade was overturned by a 5-4 decision of the Supreme Court."

Here is the challenge:

Given the hypothetical scenario described above (which is not reality - in reality God has not written a granite diary of all of time),


  1. Is there anything that anyone (including the nine supreme court justices) can do that will produce a different court outcome on April 10, 2010?
  2. Is there anything that anyone can do to prevent the outcome carved in granite from happening?
  3. Is there any chance whatsoever that the outcome carved in granite will NOT happen?
  4. Must the event described in granite occur on the corresponding day?
  5. Is it necessary that the event occur on the corresponding day?


I boldly assert that, if you accept the presupposition that God is omniscient, you have to answer each of the five questions as follows:

1) No. Such an outcome would conflict with the granite slab. Such a conflict would properly be considered an error. An error on the granite slab would imply an error in God's knowledge of the future on day 8, since the granite slab was carved then.

2) No, for essentially the same reasons as (1).

3) No, again, for the same reasons as (1) and (2).

4) Yes, because if it does not, then the granite slab will contain an error, and it is impossible for such a state to exist.

5) Yes, without any positive information about HOW the event will come to be, we can say that it is necessary.

Applications:

FreeGrace:
The application, of course, is that the future is no less certain simply because God has not written it all down. Exactly the number of people will be saved whose names would be written in that granite diary as being saved, and not one more person, and no effort on your part can alter that number.

This does not say anything positive about HOW that number will come to Christ - just that a certain, fixed number will come, and not one more.

However, this reality conflicts with your explanation of HOW that number will come to Christ. You seem to suppose that they will come in a manner that permits ALL to be saved. However, as we have shown above, nothing can permit ALL to be saved, because the granite slabs are as good as written.

Thus, the hypothetical granite diary proves your theory of causality to be wrong, without proving any other theory of causality to be right. It is no defense of your position here to say "but your theory of causality ...." My theory of causality is not in any way compromised by the hypothetical granite diary. As to this challenge, I have an explanation of HOW that does not contradict the reality demonstrated by the hypothetical granite diary. You, brother, do not.

Thus, FreeGrace, I challenge you to reconsider your view of causality in light of the reality of the certainty of the future. The idea that the salvation of all is possible is contradiction with the reality of a single future that is known to God in which less than all are saved.

Godismyjudge:

The granite diary provides an excellent test case for your Temporal Becoming argument from your paper.

You see, the granite diary phrases its descriptions of the events of each day in the past tense: 33 men were killed by a Korean Student - the Supreme Court upheld the ban on partial birth abortions, a 1944 Miss America thwarted an intruder with her revolver, a sparrow fell to the ground, Roe vs. Wade was overturned, and so on.

Viewing the statements through the lens proposed in your article, I would look at the statement Roe vs. Wade is overturned, and - using your analysis - I would say that this statement is false. That's not a normal way of speaking, because normally one would recognize that the date at the top of the slab enlightens the reader as to the sense of the proposition. Nevertheless, given your definitions, it would be correct to say that this statement is false, and will be false until April 10, 2010. Then the statement will be true for the remainder of time.

The question is this: does anyone have the power to prevent that statement from becoming true on April 10, 2010?

The answer, if you are going to accept the innerrancy of the granite slabs, is "no." It is impossible that a world could exist in which, on April 11, 2010, the granite slab entry for April 10, 2010, was false.

Furthermore, no one has (has = present tense) the ability to change what was written (was written = past tense), nor will anyone ever have (will have = future tense) the ability to change what was written (was written = past tense).

Accordingly, if the granite slab says Roe vs. Wade was overturned on April 10, 2010, then no force, power, or ability - sub-human, human, angelic, or divine - has the power (has = present tense) to arrange things otherwise.

And, as noted above, it is sufficient that the granite slab could, hypothetically have been written. It is not necessary that God actually write the slab, because the relation between the slab being written and the certainty of the future event is not causal relationship. In other words, there is no need for the slab to exist in order for the future to be certain and fixed.

You may (and probably would) claim that there is a reverse causal link (that the future must occur in order for the slab to be written). This violates the first rule of causality (that the effect follows the cause). Nevertheless, let us leave this important flaw aside for the moment.

There is a second related flaw: by what mechanism does the event cause the carving? The response is that God is the link. The event acts on God's knowledge, and then God carves the event. This makes God a second cause, not a first cause. This violates the divinity of God as being the uncaused cause.

The third, and most important flaw, however, is that it does not address the reality of the matter. The reality of the matter is that no matter whether God is a second cause or whether the future can cause the past, the future is fixed, certain, and unalterable.

The day of Roe v. Wade's overturn is written in granite, and that date will not be changed. If the granite says April 10, 2010, then that is absolutely 100% certain to be true.

There is (present tense) no way to prevent that.

And that is not consistent with typical LFW explanations of freedom of the will.

My challenge to you, Godismyjudge: set aside your view of LFW in favor of the simple, Scriptural Calvinistic view of man's will. Then, your view of man's will be consistent with the hypothetical granite diary.

-Turretinfan

********

Godismyjudge has curiously responded:

1) Yes

2) Yes

3) No

4) No

5) No

The answers are almost all curious, because they defy common sense. Common sense says that if that the future is written in stone, the future cannot be otherwise. Yet, Godismyjudge repeatedly insists that it can be otherwise.

The only curiously inconsistent answer is the "No" to number 3. Here, Godismyjudge seems to acknowledge that the future will occur exactly as written, without any discrepency.

But this conflicts with many of Godismyjudge's other answers, particularly 4 and 5. For if it can be otherwise, and if otherwise means that an outcome written can not-happen, than God's omniscience can (in whatever sense Godismyjudge means "can") be violated.

Likewise, although most people would think that God's omniscience must not be violated, and that, therefore, the carved events must happen as carved, Godismyjudge claims that it can be otherwise.

Furthermore, Godismyjudge apparently overlooks the test of his time-passage argument. Accordingly, I invite him to revisit that point.

Finally, Godismyjudge's admission that the following statement does not limit free will is one reason that I say that Godismyjudge has yet to recognize that he is a Calvinist: "The third, and most important flaw, however, is that it does not address the reality of the matter. The reality of the matter is that no matter whether God is a second cause or whether the future can cause the past, the future is fixed, certain, and unalterable."

The idea that the future is fixed, certain, and unalterable and that man is free in the relevant sense is Calvinism contrasted with Arminianism.

-Turretinfan

Godismyjudge has responded, and a discussion of his response follows.

TF had written: But this conflicts with many of Godismyjudge's other answers, particularly 4 and 5. For if it can be otherwise, and if otherwise means that an outcome written can not-happen, than God's omniscience can (in whatever sense Godismyjudge means "can") be violated.

GIMJ replies: That conclusion does not follow. As I said, the events written will happen. This alone is sufficient to preserve God’s omniscience.

I respond: GIMJ seems to have missed the force of the argument. The thrust is not that "the events will happen" conflicts with God's omniscience, but that "the events can happen otherwise" (i.e. contrary to what God has seen before) conflicts with God's omniscience. In fact, of course, to insist dogmatically that they will happen as written and to simultaneously assert that they can happen otherwise is itself self-contradictory, and that is the point. If it will happen only way, and that way is so certain and fixed that it could as well be written in stone, then to say that the future "can" be otherwise is simply to speak in some hypothetical sense - it is not to speak of the reality of the matter.

TF had written: Furthermore, Godismyjudge apparently overlooks the test of his time-passage argument.

GIMJ replied: I am not sure what argument I overlooked. I suspect there are semantic differences on this point. But to check let me ask this. Do you agree that if I were to write “today is the day I die” on a piece of paper and seal it in a safe, it will be false every day but one (assuming the Lord does not return during my life)? If so, is suspect our differences are semantic.

I respond: The argument was asking you to apply the test you just mention about the paper, to the April 10, 2010, entry of the granite diary. As to your question, under your definitions the answer is as you say, but your definitions are contrary to the normal use of language.

TF had written: The idea that the future is fixed, certain, and unalterable and that man is free in the relevant sense is Calvinism contrasted with Arminianism.

GIMJ replied: The difference may be in what sense the future “is”. But clearly, Arminian divines affirm that God infallibly knows the future, and yet they were not accepted by Calvinists.

I respond: I don't think the real difference is a difference of words, but of logical consistency. If the future is so certain from God's pov, that it could have been writtten down in stone on day 8, then it cannot be otherwise, unless you simply mean to suggest that hypothetically it could be otherwise, if we suppose things that are contrary to fact.

Allow me to suggest that we continue this discussion by turning our attention to Necessity, in the post provided here (link to post).

-Turretinfan

Friday, April 20, 2007

Dean John William Burgon vs. Alan Kurschner

Where are the Manuscripts?


In a recent article, Mr. Kurschner challenged Dean Burgon's view of the manuscript ancestry of the so-called Byzantine text. Mr. Kurschner's article appears simply to adopt modern methodologies and claims of the mainstream textual critical movement, and does not significantly interact with Dean Burgon's position.

Mr. Kurschner justifies this lack of substantial interaction by descibing Dean Burgon's views as not having been significantly advanced by "KJVO advocates." This author notes that the world is not divided into KJVO advocates and those who uncritically accept the tenets of modern textual criticism. Others, like the present author, believe that modern textual criticism is fundamentally flawed in certain respects at a presuppositional level, and thus reject many of the claims of modern textual critics.

Mr. Kurschner notes one argument that is advanced to explain why copies of Byzantine text-type manuscripts are not available prior to the earliest known Byzantine text-type manuscript (which is at least a couple of centuries separated from the autographs). The argument that Mr. Kurschner notes is the "worn out" argument.

The "worn out" argument has the following rational basis. It supposes that most scribes would have been able to identify high quality manuscripts and would have selected those manuscripts from which to make copies. The frequent use of these manuscripts would have led to their deterioration, decay, and eventually destruction. Hence, this argument reasons, one would not expect to find very old, very high quality manuscripts - but would instead expect to find mostly old, unused manuscripts.

Mr. Kurschner, doubting this explanation, refers to such manuscripts as "phantom manuscripts." This author will refer to those manuscripts as "valued second generation manuscripts" (VSGM).

Mr. Kurschner raises several questions:

1) Why didn't the church father's quote from the VSGM?

2) How could it be that ALL of the VSGM could perish?

3) If the VSGM wore out through use made by copying, where are all the copies?

Mr. Kurshner supposes that these questions settle the matter contrary to the KJVO position, and, accordingly, concludes that KJVO advocates are forced to retreat to the use of prooftexts to support their position.

Before continuing, this author wishes to make clear that what is being advocated by Thoughts of Francis Turretin is not a KJVO position. Furthermore, this author notes that the issues raised above would pose no obstacle for a presuppositional KVO-ist. If one presupposes that the KJV is uniquely inspired, then one does not need evidentiary support and one will not be swayed by arguments that purport to be evidentiary in nature.

Mr. Kurschner's analysis of the alleged proof texts would be far more value to the Reformed community than the three issues that Mr. Kurshner raised in the article above. The reason why is simple: the issues raised by Mr. Kurschner have reasonable, logical answers.

0) There is more than one explanation for the absence of VSGM. In addition to overuse, climate is one explanation and another is persecution.

1) Mr. Kurshner's argument states that the early Christian writers did not quote from the Byzantine text-type. There are several problems with this assertion.

First, it is hard enough to determine "text-type" from a fragment. It is harder still to determine text-type from reading an epistle or even commentary that may quote Scripture without rigid punctuation rules, or may paraphrase Scripture.

Second, of course, the patristics are not autographs and have their own textual critical associated issues. Determining whether certain patristic writings are authentic is sometimes a prerequisite to determine whether they are accurate, which - in turn - would be a prerequisite to determining the effect of their testimony as to the correct reading.

Third, it's puzzling why Mr. Kurshner emphasizes text-type but overlooks readings. While there may not be Byzantine text-type documents, there are certainly many areas of agreement as to the Byzantine readings.

Fourth, it is unclear whether Mr. Kurshner is asserting that the patristic writers were simply all over the place, or whether Mr. Kurshner supposes that the patristic writers had access to truly superior Greek manuscripts, and quoted from them.

Fifth, viewed narrowly as to the "worn-out" claim, those would be the manuscripts possessed by expert, professional scribes, not bishops who happened to be persuasive writers.

2) As to how all the VGSM could perish: well, very few manuscripts at all have survived from before 5th century. Generally those that do are those that are not documents kept in daily constant use but are documents stored in a relatively arid climate, such as the Nag Hammadi collection or the Dead Sea Scrolls.

3) The third argument is the strongest argument, but the answer is that they are represented in the Byzantine text-form. The argument is not that the copies were all made before the 5th century.

Counter-Argument

We have reason to believe that at least a modicum of textual criticism was practiced among the ancients. We can also reasonably suppose that the Byzantine church had manuscripts that have been lost over time. Those manuscripts may be those from which many Byzantine copies were made, and they may have been selected as models for copying based on their quality in that day.

IF that is so, there is no reason to downplay a fifth century Byzantine text, simply because it is younger than Vaticanus.

Wednesday, April 18, 2007

Murder Update

Major press outlets are reporting that the Supreme Court of the United States has affirmed the constitutionality of a law that prohibits the murder of infants by their mothers (with the assistance of doctors) using a particularly gruesome technique (or techniques... the news articles' description of the actual law that was upheld is a bit fuzzy).

Pre-birth maternal infanticide is, however, still legal and widely practiced.

The gnat of exceptional cruelty has been successfully strained, while the camel of murder continues to be consumed.

Oh the hypocrisy of it all.

Which hypocrisy is only made more glaring by the enormous media coverage accorded a spree killer in Blacksburg, Virginia, while serially infanticidal mothers and doctors all over the nation are passed over in silence. Their victims, executed for profit or convenience, far outnumber the several dozen slain in passion and, perhaps, insanity by the lone gunman of Virginia Tech.

May God spare America from the consequences of the great and continuing sin of infanticide.

-Turretinfan

Tuesday, April 17, 2007

John 6 - Christ's Spiritual Nourishment - to Lurker

An internet poster inappropriately handled "Lurker" provided a typical RCC view of John 6.
In the following I respond.
Lurker wrote:
I fail to see how one can take it as symbolic considering the reaction of his disciples in John 6.

I respond:
Jesus comment was that he was the fulfillment of the Old Testament manna:
John 6:31-33
31Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat. 32Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven. 33For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.

That the manna was a symbol of Christ is beyond reasonable question.

The main initial objection by the Jews was: "you're not from heaven, you're from your father, Joseph, and your mother, Mary."

John 6:41-42
41The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven. 42And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?
Jesus' response was to say that if they knew His Father, they would know Him.

But Jesus continued to repeat His claim to be the fulfillment of the manna:

John 6:47-51
47Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. 48I am that bread of life. 49Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die. 51I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

Jesus' point is that he gives life through faith. The fathers ate manna and died, but if someone eats Jesus' flesh and blood they will live and not die.

Now, very few Christians - if any - would be so vain in their imagination as to think that Jesus was saying that the life that he gives is physical life. Instead, it is spiritual life - eternal life. Jesus is the spiritual fulfillment of the physical Old Testament symbol.

If we take "life" spiritually we ought also to take the consumption of his body and blood spiritually. It is by faith in Him that we are nourished by Him.

But the disciples were again confused, and did not recognize the the spiritual sense of Jesus' words.

So Jesus again compared his work to that of the physical manna:
John 6:52-58
52The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat? 53Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. 54Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. 55For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. 56He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. 57As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. 58This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

Jesus even explains (in verse 57) that the way in which we "eat" him is the same way in which He lives by the Father. All who realize that His Father is not Joseph, should realize that Father does not have a body. The way that the Father nourishes Jesus is through spiritual union. Even so, we are nourished through spiritual union with (by faith in) Jesus Christ.

Those who are nourished by spiritual union with Christ will have spiritual and eternal life. They will still physically die. We should recognize that Christ is not speaking of literal, physical life.
Nevertheless, some of His disciples were offended by what Jesus said, for we read:

John 6:60-66
60Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it? 61When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you? 62What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? 63It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. 64But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. 65And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. 66From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

Notice that Jesus addresses the main source of their offense first: his deity. Jesus asks them whether they will believe if they see Him ascend to the place from whence He descended. In other words, Jesus identifies that objection (the first one the Jews raised) as the primary objection and did not back down from it.

As for the issues regarding His flesh comments, Jesus also clarified, in verse 63, that He is comparing spiritual nourishment (the nourishment he provides) with fleshly nourishment (manna), and says that the fleshly profits nothing.

Indeed, Jesus points them back to the words that He speaks (the words we now have recorded in Scripture) and says that they are spirit and life.

Nevertheless, Jesus points out there were some of the disciples who did not believe His words - as noted above, they were offended by His claim of divinity. Jesus explains that the reason they do not all believe is because God the Father did not give all of them to Him. This failure to recant His claim turned away many disciples.

Lurker continued:
They were literally aghast at the implication.

I respond:
They were primarily aghast at the claim of divinity. They mocked with a literal interpretation his claim to provide his flesh and blood.

Lurker continued:
IN fact, many of them left him over the claims they'd have to eat His flesh and drink His blood.

I respond:
As noted above, they left because He claimed to be God and claimed they didn't believe Him because they didn't know His Father and His Father did not give them to Him. They were offended and left.

Lurker continued:
Note also how they disputed among themselves saying "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?"

I respond:
Notice how "the Jews" were the ones who made that inquiry, as distinguished from His disciples. Notice how verse 59 divides the account into the public comments of Jesus (before verse 59) and the private comments of Jesus (after verse 59).

Lurker continued:
But Our Lord, rather than explaining it as figurative, like He did when they didn't understand some other teachings of His, instead re-emphasizes things! "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him"

I respond:
Actually, as noted above, Jesus did emphasize the spirituality of His nourishment, both in his private discourse to the disciples and by comparing it the nourishment He receives from His Father.

Lurker continued:
If you look at this in aramaic, you'll find the language here is quite carnal and forceful, as if He was deliberately emphasizing the literalness of His statements.

I respond:
A) Of course, John was written in Greek, not Aramaic. The Peshitta is a translation of the Greek original. That said, the idea that the language is "carnal and forceful" is contradicted by verse 63, which says that the words He speaks are spirit.

B) I have no doubt that this "carnal and forceful" is the spin placed on this text by some (probably contemporary) Roman Catholic (or possibly Eastern Orthodox) commentator. The reason for that view of the text is clear (without getting entangled in arguments over the "tone" of an ancient language): the author is seeking to support by tone what cannot be supported by exegesis.

Lurker continued:
He then warns them not to think with just their human minds, but to open it up to the Holy Spirit to give them understanding and help them believe when He says, "It is the Spirit that gives life, the flesh is of no avail; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life"

I respond:
No, that is not a warning not to think with their human minds (or "just their human minds"). It is distinguishing a fleshly, literal interpretation of his description of his nourishment from a spiritual and correct interpretation of his nourishing provision for His people.

Lurker contineud:
The plain reading of the scripture seems to leave the burden of proof on those who insist it to be symbolic.

I respond:
Actually, the plain reading of the Scripture is that Christ was speaking of spiritual nourishment, not physical nourishment.Indeed, this is confirmed by Peter's explanation as to WHY he and the other disciples (in general, Judas had other reasons) stayed:

John 6:68-69
68Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. 69And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.

Peter confessed that they believed the words of Christ and His claim to deity.

Lurker continued:
The reaction of the crowd, Jesus re-emphasizing the literalness instead of explaining it as otherwise, His warnings that it cannot be understood without the Spirit, and the fact that many disciples left after this seem to be quite clear that He said something that made no sense to them. "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?"

I respond:
No, it is not just that it cannot be understood without the spirit: it is that the nourishment that Christ gives is better than manna for it is spiritual nourishment, not fleshly nourishment. It gives spiritual life that never dies - whereas manna gave only mortal life for a season.

Lurker continued:
How? Because He is Lord. If Jesus wanted to, He can make stones into bread. How can I doubt Him when He says that the bread IS His body?

I respond:
And - of course - the response is that we are not to doubt Him, but rather to understand Him. We are not to impose a foolish physical interpretation on His words, like that unbelieving Jews, but to understand that the Lord's Supper, like manna, is a physical symbol of Christ.It is the one proper icon of Christ.

May our Manna be praised!

-Turretinfan

Friday, April 13, 2007

Communicating with Dead People

There are lots of issues where reasonable people can differ, but speaking with the dead has an historical name, and it is necromancy.

It is specifically forbidden in the Old Testament, there are no positive examples of it being practiced in Scripture, and its origin is clear: it is pagan.

Deuteronomy 18:9-12
9When thou art come into the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations. 10There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch, 11Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer. 12For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee.

You can feel free to consult with, ask for the intercessions of, and seek the help of those who are living, but communication with the departed is explicitly forbidden and is identified by Scripture as one of the reasons for which the Canaanites were condemned to the punishment of genocide.

This post is by reader request, but to the Glory of God the Father, and His risen Son!

-Turretinfan

Objection 1:


But the "dead in Christ" are alive, therefore we can communicate with them.

I respond:

The "dead in Christ" are not physically alive, and it is communicating with the physically dead that is prohibited in Scripture. If communicating with the spiritually dead were what is forbidden, we could not evangelize.

-Turretinfan

Objection 2

Praying to the saints and Mary are found in the Apocryphal books.

I respond:

Tobit mentions prayers OF the saints.

2 Maccabees mentions praying FOR the dead, but not praying TO the dead.

Baruch also mentions praying FOR the dead, but not praying TO the dead.

Wisdom mocks prayers TO the dead (more specifically, of course, to dead idols):

Wisdom 13:17-18

17Then maketh he prayer for his goods, for his wife and children, and is not ashamed to speak to that which hath no life. 18For health he calleth upon that which is weak: for life prayeth to that which is dead; for aid humbly beseecheth that which hath least means to help: and for a good journey he asketh of that which cannot set a foot forward:

I don't recall any passage of the accepted Apocrypha that mentions praying to anyone but God. Perhaps this objector has confused prayers FOR the dead with prayers TO the dead? Both are wrong, but while some passages of the Apocrypha may be taken to support the former, surely none can be used to support the latter.

- Turretinfan

Thursday, April 12, 2007

A Canon is a Reflection of Historical Fact

Any canon (list) of the works of any author is a reflection of historical fact.

If I come along and say that Macbeth was not written by Shakespeare, I am disputing the accepted canon of Shakespeare, and saying that it should be revised so as not to include that particular play.

If someone comes along and says that James is not written by inspiration of the Holy Spirit, they are disputing the accepted canon of Scripture, and saying that it should be revised so as not to include that particular epistle.

No one has the "authority" to put books in, or take books out of the canon: we simply have a duty to recognize the truth of Divine inspiration that is exhibited in the 66 books, in two testaments that we call "The Bible."

So, the Roman Catholics do not have the authority to add books to the Old Testament, and the modernists do not have the authority to remove books from the New Testament.

The Shepherd of Hermas should not be included in Bibles, because it is not divinely inspired. It's not as though it hasn't been voted into Biblehood yet - it simply wasn't inspired.

-Turretinfan

"Foreknowledge" and "Freewill"

A respected (by me at least) not-quite-Calvinist writer, going by the handle Godismyjudge, has responded (somewhat obliquely) to my earlier post, with a full, 30+ page article on his own web site.

Before you read the article, if you choose to do so, you should know that Godismyjudge is not a George Bryson, Emir/Ergun Caner, Norm Geisler, or Dave Hunt "Arminian." Godismyjudge is something closer to a classical Arminian or a Molinist. I think Godismyjudge finds William Lane Craig to be a better figurehead of his views. With a bit of a grin, I think Godismyjudge is a Calvinist who hasn't discovered that he's a Calvinist yet.

Thus, Godismyjudge would find himself at theological odds with many of the anti-Calvinist authors that I have quoted and/or replied against here. Godismyjudge's paper is, nevertheless, of interest to me.

It is a detailed, analytical presentation that attempts to reconcile God's infallible, exhaustive knowledge of the future (which the writer terms "foreknowledge") with what appears to be libertarian free will (which the writer calls "freewill").

While I disagree with a great deal of the article, and I suppose I should, at some point, respond line by line, here are the most obvious challenges:

Dear Godismyjudge,

1) One of the weaknesses of your article is your attempt to establish "freewill" from Scripture. You appeal to what you view as five types of passages. Reviewing those five types of passages, however, it becomes clear that the passages themselves are only sufficient to support Calvinistic free will, and not sufficient to support libertarian free will.

Specifically, Calvinistic free will simply says that a choice is a determination or judgment by an animate being with respect to one object in preference to another object. No more of a free will than that is taught by Scripture, yet the reason for presenting your argument evaporates if there is no Scriptural reason to believe in anything more than Calvinistic free will.

Why do any of the passages you cited, or the combination of passages, require anything more than a simple, Calvinistic free will?

2) There are lots of kinds of necessity mentioned in your article. Nevertheless, you don't really tie (as far as I could see) one or more of these kinds of necessity into your definition of "freewill." Indeed, most of your (and your adopted) definitions relate to the "necessity" of propositions, not actions, choices, or events. As such, a thoughtful reader is left wondering whether you have even identified what it is you believe. I, for one, could not discover the relationship between "necessity" (any version from "de dicto" to "de re natural necessity/impossibility/contingence" in your list in Appendix A) and your definition of libertarian free will, which you label "freewill."

A typical definition of libertarian free will is that man is free from necessity. That sounds great, but when we explore what is meant by the word "necessity," it turns out either to be essentially meaningless, in conflict with Scripture, in conflict with reason, and/or (and more than one can apply) utterly detached from the ordinary meaning of the term "necessity" in common parlance.

What is your definition of "freewill" (your term), how does it relate (presumably negatively) to "necessity," and what is your definition of that kind of necessity to which "freewill" relates?

3) Do you acknowledge the thesis of my post, namely: "There is a future, one future, and only one future. What that future is, is already known to God and to those to whom God has revealed it." to be a true thesis and supported by Scripture?

4) If not (to item 3), then why not?

May God bless you abundantly,

-Turretinfan

Godismyjudge has replied:

If I have yet to discover my Calvinist leanings, perhaps you might be able to get me in touch with my true feelings. I do take a hard line on total depravity. It's biblical. So in that sense I might look more Calvinistic than many modern authors. I also view God's providential control a bit tighter than some. But I do hold to freewill. And I suspect that the ancient writers that I enjoy best (Arminius, Molina, Suarez) were those most troublesome to the first Calvinists.

Calvinists also believe in "free will" properly defined, brother Godismyjudge.

Godismyjudge continues:

Let's get into your questions.
[as to Question 1] My honest answer is I don't know, because I am not quite clear on the Calvinistic definition of freewill. From what I do understand either Calvinistic freewill matches the scriptural definition and runs into consistency issues with other Calvinistic teachings such as prognostic determinism and causal determinism, or the Calvinistic definition does not meet the requirements of the passages I listed.

I respond:

I'm not sure what is unclear in the definition I provided, namely: "Calvinistic free will simply says that a choice is a determination or judgment by an animate being with respect to one object in preference to another object." What is unclear?

Godismyjudge continued:

If I could request a minor clarification on your part that would be helpful. My request for clarification is in two parts. The first relates to "preference" as you use the term in your definition. Choice and preference can be synonyms, but to use a synonym to define its counterpart is somewhat bootstrapped. But I am not sure what you mean by preference so if you could please explain that would be great.

I respond:
Using synonyms to define terms is pretty much standard practice. Is the problem that it is unclear what it means to prefer something? To prefer something means to desire it more than something else. Thus, to choose is to express greater desire for one object than another. I hope that helps. Are you now able to answer the question?

Godismyjudge continued:
Second, I presume you think man has the ability to choose as you have defined choice. Could you please define that ability? Also could you please state if we are able to select the alternative object (the object we will not choose), using the same definition for ability that you use for the object we will choose? If we are not able to choose the alternative object in the same sense of ability, but rather in some other sense of ability, please provide that sense.

I respond:

Men do make choices. In common parlance, people can only do things that are within their ability. Accordingly, using that common parlance sense of the term, men have the ability to make choices.

Given the definitions provided above for choice, it would be absurd to speak of a person choosing what is less desired or unpreferred. The exception, of course, is when one is speaking disjointly - as, for example, when we speak of a martyr choosing death. Recall that the preference is a relative preference. It is not that the martyr prefers death to life, but that the martyr prefers death to betrayal of his Lord.

Taking the example of the martyr, if the man loved his life more than he loved Christ, he would not choose martyrdom but would recant - kiss the toe of the statue of Peter, or whatever task was assigned - and live. There is no question that the martyr has the physical ability to speak words of recantation, that the martyr has the physical ability to crawl on his knees to a basilica, etc. Thus, the martyr could say to his tormentors, "Do you not realize that I have the ability to recant and save myself?" What is implied behind those words is "if I desired to" or "if I loved my life more than I love my King."

Hopefully that answers your questions. Can you answer mine now?

Godismyjudge continues:
Question 2
Request for clarification
[See Question 2 above]
Thanks for requesting the clarification. I will likely rework the article with some additional explanation. In the section on choice and ability I provided some broad definitions (the ability to do otherwise or power over alternative possibilities). I didn't but should have endorsed them. I wanted to relate them to the topic of the paper so I provided: "the ability to do nonA at T3 entails that nothing prior to T3 renders nonA impossible." This was meant to relate the definition of freewill to
foreknowledge.

I respond:

When you say that you should have endorsed them, are you saying that you do endorse them now?

I can understand "the ability to do X at T requires that nothing prior to T makes X impossible," and recognize that it is based on the premise "impossibility is inconsistent with ability" or in other words, "one can only do that which is possible." There's nothing objectionable about the point that one can only do the possible, and not the impossible.

Nevertheless, I don't see much (if any connection) between that and any defintion of necessity.

Godismyjudge continued:

As for the type of necessity the will is free from, I would say any type of necessity. Using Freddosso's definitions I would say the will is free from causal necessity (which also entails logical, metaphysical de dicto, historical contingency).

I respond:

Maybe I missed it, but I don't see Freddoso's definition of "causal necessity" in your article. Perhaps you could provide me that defintion?

Godismyjudge continued:

Question 3
[See Question 3 above]
I have trouble with your use of the word "is" as I can't tell in what sense you are claiming that the future exists today.

I respond:
I'm obliged to mention Bill Clinton's name here.
Moving on, I don't recall saying that the future exists today. My statement is shown above, but does not seem to suggest that the future exists today, and I'm not sure why you would be troubled by my statement's use of "is." Perhaps you could clarify.

Godismyjudge continued:

If you are defining the future as "a set of events that will be" or "a time to come," no I disagree. I would fear a collapse of time into one moment. Cleary [sic] future events to [sic] not exist right now. If you are defining the future as "a set of true future tense propositions," yes I agree with your statement. Statements about the future are true today but the future events don't exist today.

I respond:

Clearly future events are not happening right now. That they have not occurred yet is what makes the (for now) future. Yet your "collapse of time" argument would require that we also deny the existance of a single past, which utter confusion. The events of the past are not happening right now either. Nevertheless, they are real - and we can say truly, and without any error that there is one past.

We can also say that there is one present and one future. In fact, considering history as a whole (past, present, and future), there is but one history, because there is but one God who has ordained history.

Godismyjudge continued:

Beyond the question of the "preexistence" of the future is the question of one future vs. many futures. I will take the liberty of defining the future so this issue can be addressed. Defining the future as a set of events that will be, I would change: "There is a future, one future, and only one future. What that future is, is already known to God and to those to whom God has revealed it." To: There will be a set of events, one set of events, and only one set of events. What that set of events will be is already known to God and to those to whom God has revealed it. In this sense only one set of events will be.

I respond:

This formulation has the same dreaded "is" ("What that set of events will be is already known to God ...."). Thus, the same implication follows, namely that what will be is a fixed, certain res. It must be certain, otherwise it could not be ascertainable. Yet it has been ascertained, therefore it is certain. What will be, will be. Nothing else can be, because there cannot be a plurality of futures.

Godismyjudge continues:

But can other sets of events occur? Yes.

I respond:

No - only what has been ascertained can occur. The sense in which other futures are "possible" is only in a hypothetical sense. As above, a future in which the martyr recants etc. is "possible" only in a world in which the martyr loves his life more than Christ - a world that does not exist.

Godismyjudge continues:
These counterfactual sets of events define other possible futures. Many sets of events can be (giving rise to many possible futures), but of those sets of events only one set of events will be (giving rise to one actual future).

I respond:

There are also "possible pasts" in the sense of things that could have been, but were not. Nevertheless, the future is no less certain, fixed, and singular than the past.

Godismyjudge:

This distinction leads to defining future events in a divided and compound sense. Future events in a divided sense are those events which can be and future events in a compound sense are those events that will be.

I respond:

Even so, we could create a divided past (things that could have been) and a compound past (things that were). Or, perhaps more clearly, we can do so with the present, with the divided sense being things other than they are (a hypothetical state) and the compound sense being things the way they are (reality).

The past, the present, and the future are all part of the reality of history: which is known and ordained by God.

-Turretinfan

Godismyjudge has responded to my remarks:

I had written:
To prefer something means to desire it more than something else. Thus, to choose is to express greater desire for one object than another. I hope that helps. Are you now able to answer the question?
Godismyjudge responded:
Yes that helps. Thanks. I am going to parrot back in my own words, my understanding of Calvinistic freewill.

I reply:

That seems like a risky endeavor. Most non-Calvinists who try to present the Calvinist position in their own words fail. Let us hope you have better success.

I had written:

Calvinistic free will simply says that a choice is a determination or judgment by an animate being with respect to one object in preference to another object.

Godismyjudge replied:

Man’s two faculties involved in choice are reason and desire. The two align in a choice. Man has the ability to reach conclusions via reason (your words: determinations or judgments) and desire one thing greater than another (your word: preference).

I reply:

It really looks like you are complicating a rather simple definition that I provided. Your restatement employs philosophical terminology that tends to obfuscate rather than clarify. The term “faculties,” for example, requires definition. What is wrong – if anything – with the simple definition? Why seek to complicate it?

Godismyjudge continued:

I am going to add a little based on my understanding of Calvinism. The results of reason and the object most desired are determined by factors external to man. There might be many steps in the process internal to man. But ultimately there is some external condition which is a sufficient cause of the result. Further, there is a chain of sufficient causes with leads back all the way to God as originator.


I reply:
Again, this complicates matters further by addressing not just what a choice is, but how a choice comes to be. Furthermore, your characterization employs more philosophical terminology, which – again – requires definition. There is really no reason to drag causality into the discussion. Doing so tends to muddy the waters, which clear thinking should be opposed to.

Godismyjudge continued:

Understood in this manor [sic] let’s get back to your original question.


I respond:

I’d rather you didn’t impose those complications into the simply definition already provided. I can’t see any valid reason for complicating things.

I had written:

Why do any of the passages you cited, or the combination of passages, require anything more than a simple, Calvinistic free will?


Godismyjudge responded:

They all do because there is nothing in man to interact with, nothing to test, nothing to discover, no other origin of sin, no will able to choose contrary to God’s will, no source of resistance, no other source of ultimate responsibility.


I respond:
I think you’ve tried to criticize the straw man you set up above with respect to causality, rather than the simple definition I already provided. As such, of course, a detailed response is unnecessary. Instead, I could simply point you to the shorter definition provided above, which – presumably – does not provide the conflict you believe exists.
But as to your specific objections:

  • are you aware that computer games (including one player games) are called interactive entertainment? That suggests that we believe that we can interact with a machine.
  • are you aware that people test cars all the time? That suggests that we can test machines.
  • are you suggesting that an omnipotent being can “discover” in the ordinary sense of the term, i.e. to learn something that was previously unknown? I will agree that my definition above is fully compatible with God being omniscient and, therefore, incapable of discovering new information.
  • you’re wrong about the idea that man cannot choose contrary to God’s will in Calvinism, and it is surprising that you would be unaware of that fact.
  • if on the road ahead, there is a single speck of dust – would we ordinarily speak of that as providing “resistance” to your car? Unless we are doing some kind of engineering analysis, we would not. The contrast between the collective power of all the created order and the power of an omnipotent God is much greater than the speck versus the car, because the car has finite power, but God has infinite power. Nevertheless, Calvinism acknowledges that, in a sense, men do resist God’s will. Furthermore, we humans can build machines that provide resistance – Nautilus ® equipment is an example.


In short, all of your criticisms either make God sub-divine (by denying his omniscience) or absurdly suggest that Calvinism’s man has less capability than a man-made machine. There’s something awry with your analysis.

Furthermore, if you had limited yourself to the definitions I had actually provided, you cannot make those claims that you are making. There is nothing inconsistent between the definitions of choice I have provided and any of the verses your paper mentions.

Godismyjudge had asked:

I presume you think man has the ability to choose as you have defined choice. Could you please define that ability?


I had answered:

Men do make choices. In common parlance, people can only do things that are within their ability. Accordingly, using that common parlance sense of the term, men have the ability to make choices. Given the definitions provided above for choice, it would be absurd to speak of a person choosing what is less desired or unpreferred. The exception, of course, is when one is speaking disjointly - as, for example, when we speak of a martyr choosing death. There is no question that the martyr has the physical ability to speak words of recantation. … What is implied behind those words is “if I desired to.” ….


Godismyjudge replied:

I am not sure how you answered the question. Perhaps you meant as defined by common parlance or perhaps you meant physical ability. The problem with common parlance (which term itself is no longer common parlance, despite Pirates of the Caribbean’s attempts to bring it back) is that terms are used equivocally. You provided an example in which the martyr says he can do otherwise. The same martyr, when asked to recant, might answer “sir, I cannot” meaning I don’t choose to. So the same man might affirm or deny counterfactual ability under common parlance. So a bit more rigor is sometimes required. Putting common definitions foreword in a philosophical discussion often has the result of the author defining things however they want, and claiming to bring the masses along for the ride. Tighter specificity is required in technical discussions and often it’s helpful to find something external to the term (ie not a synonym) to use as a foundation to build from.


I respond:
I have several bones to pick with the comments above.

  • If you don’t like the term “common parlance” because it sounds pompous or piratical, then substitute “ordinary speech.”
  • When a child tells his mother “I cannot” to mean simply that the child chooses not to do something, we would view that child as exaggerating the matter. When a martyr tells the grand Inquisitor, “No, I cannot bow the knee to Mary,” he means that the choice itself is morally impossible for him. He doesn’t just mean that he has already made a choice like the self-willed child – he means that his convictions are so strong that he must choose to serve God and only God.
  • The problem with inserting philosophical words into the discussion is that they have a tendency to confuse people. It’s not necessary to delve into philosophy in order to understand the Calvinistic definition of man’s will – and doing so seems likely to simply amplify confusion.
  • The biggest problem with philosophical definitions is that they are sometimes quite different from the ordinary sense of the terms. It is not that words are being used more precisely, but rather that the words are being used with new and distinct meanings.
  • If you are going to use philosophical terms with particular, technical meanings, expect to be asked to translate those terms into ordinary speech. Also, expect to be called to account for whether you are applying a philosophical definition when an ordinary definition should be used.



Godismyjudge continued:

As for physical ability, that is more specific, but seems to relate to the actions chosen in the context you provided. So I am not sure I understand the answer to the question.

I respond:
Pick a new context, if you like.

Godismyjudge continued:

I asked: Also could you please state if we are able to select the alternative object and I also asked: If we are not able to choose the alternative object in the same sense of ability, but rather in some other sense of ability, please provide that sense. I took your responses as no and we are able to select the alternative in a divided sense, excluding our strongest desire.


I respond:
Looking at my response above, I don’t think that’s an accurate characterization of my response. I think I said it is an absurdity to speak of choosing what we prefer less.

Godismyjudge continued:

This leads me to the problem I have with your definition of freewill. You assume one strongest desire which is in place prior to the choice.


I respond:
In the case of the martyr, that is not an assumption. The desire to live is not as strong as the desire to honor God, before the rack is racked, before stake is placed in the town square – before the martyr is required to choose between his life and his Lord. To deny that it is, is truly bizarre.

Godismyjudge continued:

Choice relates to alternatives (ie two or more objects). The way you explain choice it neither determines, controls or even identifies which desire is strongest. Choice is simply acting on the one object which is desired the strongest. There is no real alternative. You specifically say we are unable to do anything else.


I respond:
Man expresses man’s desires through choice. Choice is not a self-existent thing that sits in man’s temples or forehead. Choice exists in its use. When man chooses something over something else, he is expressing a preference for that something.

To say that “there is no real alternative,” as you do, is simply wrong. The alternative is the unchosen object – the “something else” that is less preferred. In the case of the martyr, it is life with recantation.

I had written:

I can understand "the ability to do X at T requires that nothing prior to T makes X impossible," and recognize that it is based on the premise "impossibility is inconsistent with ability" or in other words, "one can only do that which is possible." There's nothing objectionable about the point that one can only do the possible, and not the impossible. Nevertheless, I don't see much (if any connection) between that and any definition of necessity.



Godismyjudge responded:

I place counterfactuals within the realm of ability. If something is necessary, counterfactuals are impossible.


I respond:
I assume that this is an answer fraught with philosophical terms. Before I respond, please define:

  1. counterfactuals
  2. ability
  3. necessary
  4. impossible


If you had meant just the ordinary sense of the terms, the reply would be that “counterfactual” information is explicitly outside the realm of reality. Only factual information is within the realm of reality.

I had written:

Maybe I missed it, but I don't see Freddoso’s definition of “causal necessity” in your article. Perhaps you could provide me that definition?

Godismyjudge responded:

Freddoso uses the term necessity of nature. In his explanations he uses the phrase “causes operative at moment T.”


I respond:
I’m not sure I’m any closer to understanding Freddoso is trying to say. What does “necessity of nature” mean? What does the phrase “causes operative at moment T” refer to?

I had written:

My statement is shown above, but does not seem to suggest that the future exists
today, and I’m not sure why you would be troubled by my statement's use of “is.”
Perhaps you could clarify.

Godismyjudge replied:

“Is” means that something exists today. We seem to agree that the events of the future don’t exist today, nor the time of the future exist today. But events that will be or time that will be are the normal definitions of the future (common parlance).


I reply:
It is perfectly ordinary to speak of certain (concrete, pre-known) events in the future using the verb “is.” For example:
1 Samuel 20:18 Then Jonathan said to David, To morrow is the new moon: and thou shalt be missed, because thy seat will be empty.

The translators supplied “is” there – not because they were Calvinists, but because it is normal to speak of the future in that way, without suggesting that the new moon is already occurring today.

Furthermore, the criticism you have made would also apply to the past. Those events are not occurring at the moment, but we can still recognize the reality of the past and say that “There is one past, and only one past – and there can be no other past.

Thus, your emphatic “exists today” is a mistaken claim about the usage of “is.” That is certainly once sense in which the verb can be used, but it is obviously not the exclusive sense of the term.

Godismyjudge continued:

I provided a more technical definition, but using these common ones we have:

P1: TF says “There is a future” [Edit by TF: also “There is a past,” and “There is a present.”]

P2: is means exists today [Edit by TF: but sometimes “is” just conveys existence, see above.]

P3: future means events that will be [Edit by TF: “future” refers to events that have not occurred yet, just as “past” refers to events that have already occurred, and “present” refers to events that occurring.]

C1: therefore, there exists today events that will be (P1, P2, P3) [Edit by TF: and if this logic is correct, “there exists today events that have already occurred” and “there exists today events that are occurring”]

P4: if there exists today X, X exists today [Edit by TF: this seems to be a question of syntax. The reason for this is clearly to change “There is a future,” into “A future is.” The former makes sense in English, the latter does not. Syntactically we can reject this premise.]

C2: events that will be exists today (C1, P4) [Edit by TF: “events that
have not occurred yet” exist today would be a better way of saying it. As
noted above, this is a syntactically stilted way of phrasing the matter.
The better way to phrase it is, “as of today there are events that have
not yet occurred.” (as well as events that have already occurred, and events
that are occurring.)]

P5: the passage of time requires that that which will be does not exist today (edit by TF: this is the heart of the argument – see below)

C2: time is incompatible with TF’s statement (C2, P5)


I respond:

Is the second coming of Christ a real event?
Is it an event that is occurring now?
Is it an event that has occurred already?
Is it an event that will occur?

The answer, of course, is that it is an event that will occur. That is what makes it part of the future. The content of what is past and what is future is what changes with the passage of time.

The future is the set of all events that have not yet occurred, but will occur.
The past is the set of all events that have already occurred.
The present is the set of all events that are occurring.

All three parts of history are equally real. Only the past is known to us. We are discovering the present, but by the time we process it (because we are finite) it is already the past.

It is as proper to say “There is a future, and only one,” as to say “There is a past, and only one,” even though – technically – the past events have already gone and the future events have not yet come.

In other words, all this quibbling over the use of the word “is,” is simply a smokescreen, a distraction from the real issue: the reality and singularity of the future. It proves too little (by simply proving what we all agree – that future events are, by definition, not occurring right now) and too much (by attempting to discredit the use of the term “is” in conjunction with the future, it also must discredit the use of the term “is” with respect to the past). In short, it is an invalid criticism of the statement.

Godismyjudge had written:

There will be a set of events, one set of events, and only one set of events. What that set of events will be is already known to God and to those to whom God has revealed it. In this sense only one set of events will be.

I had responded:

This formulation has the same dreaded “is” (“What that set of events will be is already known to God ....”). Thus, the same implication follows, namely that what will be is a fixed, certain res. It must be certain, otherwise it could not be ascertainable. Yet it has been ascertained, therefore it is certain. What will be, will be. Nothing else can be, because there cannot be a plurality of futures.


Godismyjudge responds:

God’s knowledge and not the events exist today. As for the implications a full analysis and resolution is provided in my article.


I reply:
There are plenty of problems with your article that I will address in due course. Nevertheless, the point remains. The future is simply “the set of events that will be.” Yet one can (and even you do) use that quantity (“the set of events that will be”) together with a present tense form of the verb “to be.” Thus, your criticism applies just as much to your own position.

Furthermore, fundamentally, the idea that there is a definite, concrete set of events that will be – only one such set – is the primary feature of Calvinism that is objectionable to the average reader. There is no chance that things will be otherwise than foreseen – God’s righteousness depends on it.

Isaiah 41:26 Who hath declared from the beginning, that we may know? and beforetime, that we may say, He is righteous? yea, there is none that sheweth, yea, there is none that declareth, yea, there is none that heareth your words.


I had written:

only what has been ascertained can occur. The sense in which other futures are “possible” is only in a hypothetical sense. As above, a future in which the martyr recants etc. is “possible” only in a world in which the martyr loves his life more than Christ - a world that does not exist.



Godismyjudge replied:

This is either based on collapsing time or the assumption discussed in the article: namely the basis of truth of future tense statements must exist at the time the statements are true.


I reply:
As noted above, the “collapsing time” argument itself collapses when we consider the past. We can speak of “what could have been,” but those hypothetical pasts are possible only in a hypothetical sense. “If things had been different …” is the way that this counter-reality is described. The “basis of truth of future tense statements” argument is a philosophical mess that demands some untangling. However, I guess that will have to wait until I line-by-line your article.

Godismyjudge continued:

Under your view, something prior to the martyr’s actions renders the martyr’s act necessary. There is an implied preceding basis of truth. In my view, the martyr’s future actions are the basis of truth of future tense statements about the martyr’s actions.


I reply:
I’ll politely decline to adopt your characterization of my position. I assume you are using “necessary” in an as-yet-undefined philosophical sense. As such, of course, I would decline to adopt something undefined and potentially meaningless.

I had written:

we could create a divided past (things that could have been) and a compound past (things that were). Or, perhaps more clearly, we can do so with the present, with the divided sense being things other than they are (a hypothetical state) and the compound sense being things the way they are (reality).


Godismyjudge replied:

Agreed. But as per the article, the past & present have additional considerations, namely causal closeness.


I reply:
Again, it seems you want to jump away from existence to causation. “Causal closeness” is obviously a philosophical term.

The bottom line, however, is that I’m no closer to figuring out why anything more than the simple Calvinistic definition of “free will” is required from the texts you provided. I’m also not any closer to figuring out what your definition of “free will” is, or to identifying what you mean by “necessity.”

-Turretinfan

Tuesday, April 10, 2007

John 3:16 - FreeGrace

John 3:16 says

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

As this verse clearly states, the purpose of God giving His Son was to save the particular group of people known only to God referred to here as "whosoever believeth in him."

FreeGrace, an internet poster, has challegened this view, claiming that John 3:16 indicates that God has made salvation possible for everyone (his exact words were: "God has made a way for all men to be saved").

FreeGrace is welcome to comment here and defend his view against the brief Scriptual exegesis presented above.

-Turretinfan

UPDATE:

FreeGrace seems to think I have mistaken him for an internet poster with the handle "Ezra."

I have not: Here's FreeGrace's comment: "There was no error. It has always been your understanding of the text that doesn't agree with the plain words of the text. Ezra's point that God has made a way for all men to be saved through Christ is true, although that contradicts your pov. "
Here's a link as proof of FreeGrace's amnesia:
http://forums.crosswalk.com/fb.aspx?m=2312201

FreeGrace continues:
What TF doesn't mention here is his view that the first part of Jn 3:16 refers to "the believing ones" in the second part of the verse, yet he gives no exegetical reason to do so.

I respond:
Well, actually, as far as the comments above, go, FreeGrace is right.
Allow me to remedy with the same exegetical reason that I've provided before:

The "For ... that ..." is what ties the two halves the of the verse together.

FreeGrace continues:
IOW, he thinks "world" refers only to believers, and that God doesn't love everyone in the world.

I respond:

On the contrary, I just think that God loves the elect in a particular, special way that is different from the way in which he loves the rest of His creation. Nevertheless, here, "world" which can mean lots of different things in Scripture, is referring to the world generally (i.e. elect from both Israel and the Nations). This becomes clear when it is seen what God does based on the love: he sends his Son to save all the believing ones ("whosoever believeth").

FreeGrace continues:
For him, it's just "fact". Yet, every English translation has captured the essence of the verse in translating "the believing ones" as "whosoever believes", indicating that whoever in the world that believes will be saved.

I respond:
Obviously, I do view the sense of the passage as a fact. Furthermore, the English translation "whosoever believeth" is exactly correct, for it means the same thing as "all the believing ones," which is a more direct, but awkward, translation.

Furthermore, it is not true that every English translation renders it the same way - or that every English translation uses "whosoever" instead of "every one" or "everyone" or "all." One wonders whether FreeGrace will need proof of this statement.

FreeGrace wrote:
This verse does demonstrate that God has made salvation available for everyone who believes in His Son.
I respond:
This is a classic quasi-Arminian assertion - but it simply is not true. God did not make salvation "available" to them, and it was not His purpose to do so. Christ SAVED His people from their sins, and God's purpose in sending Jesus was to SAVE, not to make salvation "available" or merely possible.

-Turretinfan

1 Timothy 2:4

I Timothy 2:4 states:

1 Timothy 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

What does that mean?

In context, it means that God has decreed to save men from every social eschelon - including kings (see vs. 2), thus, we should not hesitate to pray for all classes of men.

FreeGrace, an internet poster whom I've encountered previously, has a different view. I invite him to explain his different view here.

-Turretinfan

Saturday, April 07, 2007

Response to Dave Barry

Today, April 7, 2007, the New York Daily News republished a "classic" Dave Barry column.

Among many other things, Dave Barry wrote regarding the televangelists available in South Florida on a 24 hour televangelism cable channel:


But as entertaining as these shows are, their message tends to be somewhat repetitive ("God loves you! So send us money!"), whereas on your local TV news shows, they're always surprising you with dramatic new issues that you should be nervous about.

Sadly, Mr. Barry, you do hear that message a lot. I know you are a humor columnist, and that you may not (no, certainly do not) even take your own column seriously. Nevertheless, your comic oversimplification demonstrates what people hear.

It's not the message of the Bible.

The message you should be hearing, Mr. Barry, is this:

  • All men, yourself included, were created by God.
  • As Creator, God demands that you follow the moral law.
  • He has given you a general sense of this moral law in your conscience. That's why, when you lie to someone, you have that icky feeling afterwards. Deep down, you know that it is wrong.
  • Whether or not you still hear your conscience, God wrote down those moral laws in summary form in stone and gave them to Moses. I'm sure you're well aware of this fact, Mr. Barry, since you live in the U.S. where people have virtually all heard of the ten commandments.
  • Because you have broken at least one of those laws in some form or another, God's position is that you deserve to die not just now on Earth, but for all eternity in Hell. I recognize that this is not what the "big-haired" (your words) folks tend to emphasize.
  • That's very bad news.
  • Nevertheless, things are not hopeless. If you trust in God, if you repent of your sins (your violations of His moral laws), if you confess them to Him, and beg Him to forgive you, He will. God is a merciful God. He shows mercy unto those who come to Him for mercy.
  • But go to Him quickly, and seek salvation from Him. Pray to Him that he will forgive your sins.
  • If you trust in Him, He will save you.

And, Mr. Barry, if you do not already trust in Him, I urge you to do so, sir. For when you pass on, it will be too late, and life is fleeting.

-Turretinfan

Thursday, April 05, 2007

Spanking Debate - Open Challenge

Open Challenge
to any professing Christian
on
Spanking

Scripture, Historical Christianity, and especially Reformation theology are clear:

If you love your children, you will spank your children.

There are modernist in the church who are seeking to deny this, to assert that is wrong for parents to hit their children, or the like.

I hereby challenge any professing Christian to a debate on the topic of spanking.

I offer this affirmative thesis that I will defend:

Scripture commands parents to spank their children as a general rule when the children deserve such a spanking, it is hatred of one's child to refuse to follow this rule, and such an understanding is the consistent teaching of virtually all pre-modern Christian exegetes who have addressed the issue.

If you are interested in debating this topic (or a subpart of the topic), either comment on this post, or send me an email. You can access my email through my profile, which is linked on the left side of this blog.

I don't expect to get any serious offers from anti-spanking advocates, because - frankly - Scripture and History are clear on these issues. Nevertheless, if there is an overwhelming response, I'll let those anti-spanking advocates who post here pick a spokesman by a democratic process, and then they can all pile on with comments.

The proposed format is:

I will present a < 5000 word opening statement.
The anti-spanking advocate will present a < 5000 word opening statement.
I and the anti-spanking advocate will take turns asking questions for up to 20 questions each ( 500 word per question limit for questions and 2500 word per answer limit for answers).
The anti-spanking advocate will present a < 5000 word conclusion statement.
I will present a < 5000 word conclusion statement.
Then we will each take questions from the public, with the same question/answer word limits and with the public choosing who the primary answerer will be.

  • Any takers?

-Turretinfan

The Canon Votes at Trent

One Roman Catholic apologist has made a claim regarding a vote at Trent regarding the Canon of Scripture.

A few websites state that the Council of Trent voted 24 aff/ 15 neg/ 16 abstain to adopt the canon of the Old Latin Vulgate version of the Bible. It's interesting that the dogmatized view did not command a majority vote (only a plurality vote) on the topic. It really makes one wonder what goes through the minds of Roman Catholics who adopt Trent's definition as infallible.

So far, I cannot see any other references to votes on the topic of the canon that were made at Trent.

Can anyone point me to more information?

-Turretinfan

UPDATE:

RCC apologist's claim: "From these we see that the bishops at Trent were not silent about their silence on this question. They had a discussion about it. At the end of that discussion, they took a vote. This is a matter of record, not of interpretation. On March 29, 1546 the Council Fathers took up the fourth of fourteen questions (Capita dubitationum) on Scripture and Tradition. At issue was whether those books that were not included in the official list, but were included in the Latin Vulgate (e.g. The Book of Esdras, Fourth Ezra, and Third Maccabees), should be rejected by a Conciliar decree, or be passed over in silence. Only three Fathers voted for an explicit rejection. Forty-two voted that the status of these books should be passed over in silence."

But a primary source:
Paolo Sarpi Istoria del Concilio tridentino ("History of the Tridentine Council), Libro secondo (Second Book), L'edizione volgata approvata in congregazione (The Vulgate edition approved in congregation).

Writes:
La congregazione de' 29 tutta fu consummata sopra il quinto articolo, perché avendo parlato i teologi con poca risoluzione e col rimetter al voler della sinodo, a quale appartiene far i statuti, i padri ancora erano ambigui. (emphasis added)

The point that I'm drawing from this is that Sarpi claims that enitre 29th day (of March 1546) was consumed with discussion of the fifth (quinto) article.

No mention is made in Sarpi of any vote taking place on 29 March 1546.

Furthermore, from the same book, chapter "Il canone de' libri sacri stabilito, e si tratta della traslazione latina" (The canon of Holy Scripture established ...)

Sarpi writes:
"Il dí 15, proposte le tre formule, se ben ciascuna ebbe chi la sostentò, la terza però fu approvata dalla maggior parte. Nelle seguenti congregazioni parlarono i teologi sopra gli altri articoli, e molta differenza fu nel terzo sopra la translazione latina della Scrittura tra alcuni pochi che avevano buona cognizione di latino e gusto di greco, et altri nudi di cognizione di lingue."

The point I'm making here is that the 15th day of March is the day, according to Sarpi, when the canon of Scripture was established. Likewise, there is no mention in Sarpi of any such vote either on the 15th nor in the interim until the 29th as discussed above.

Here's a woodcut of Sarpi:



-Turretinfan

Tuesday, April 03, 2007

The Epistle of James

Some, following Luther, have questioned whether James is part of Scripture.

I take the view that it is part of Scripture, as do virtually all the Reformers after Luther and all the Reformers before Luther.

An objector asserted various points against James.

1) That it contradicts Paul's epistles and can only be reconciled by mental gymanstics.

2) That it was not relied upon for the first 400 years of the church.

3) That James was notoriously anti-Pauline, citing the proceedings of the council of Jerusalem.

I disagree with each of these contentions.

In terms of early use of James' epistle in the church, Irenaeus (died 202), "Against Heresies" Book IV, Chapter XVI quotes James 2:23.

In terms of reconciling James and Paul, James speaks of justifying oneself in the eyes of men ("show me thy faith") whereas Paul speaks of justification before God ("... by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight..." ... "if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God." ... "no man is justified by the law in the sight of God,"). Thus, Paul explains the importance of faith in salvation, and James explains a way to identify whether we and others have faith (and therefore have been saved), teaching what the Lord taught: "by their fruits ye shall know them." After all, the engrafted word will bear fruit in us.

As it is written "... the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart." 1 Samuel 16:7

I'm not sure if the objector views that as gymnastics - but I don't think it is.

As for the council of Jerusalem, we see James' instruction in Acts 15:20 of what to write. We see it being written in Acts 14:29 (with an assertion that it is inspired in verse 28), and we see confirmation that it was written in Acts 21:25 and we see Paul confirming by deed his submission to the Holy Spirit in Acts 21:24-26.

In fact, while Paul was not afraid to oppose Peter and to record his opposition in Scripture, there is no record of Paul and/or Barnabus opposing the council. Instead, we see that they were sent out by the council (headed by James) and they came back and reported back to the council.

So, I do respectifully disagree with the objections, and I do not believe that they are factually supported.

Nevertheless, I welcome any comments.

May the God of peace bless all of us,

-Turretinfan

P.S. Today, James Swan has posted an interesting article that touches somewhat on this issue, and is worth reading:

http://www.aomin.org/index.php?itemid=1892

Thursday, March 29, 2007

Anti-Calvinist Emir Caner Question Answered

Emir Caner, in a recent sermon, asked:

If God could have saved all mankind apart from man's decision, why didn't He?

I respond:

This is a typical Anti-Calvinist question, though not a particularly thoughtful one. The answer that it is intended to provoke is:

"Because He doesn't want to save all mankind!"

To which the Anti-Calvinist will then exuberently (and mistakenly) respond:

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

And then the Anti-Calvinist will say that this proves that God does want to save all mankind.

Problems arise from this rebuttal:

1) If the rebuttal is correct, what has been shown? Is the reason provided wrong or is the assumption that God could save man apart from man's decision?

2) If the reaon provided is what is wrong, what is the real reason?

3) If the assumption that God could save man apart from man's decision is wrong, then (a) how does that imply anything other than a less-than-omnipotent God, and (b) shall we conclude that those who cannot make decisions (e.g. babies and the mentally challenged) are lost?

4) And, of course, the "not any" and "all" refer to the "us" in "us-ward" i.e. the elect.


Emir Caner also asks:
If it didn't take a response from us, why did God, in his sovereignty, in his providence, if it is independent of us, and he would place faith inside of us and change us and we couldn't say no, why didn't He do it with all mankind?
I respond:

This is essentially the same question, and has essentially the same answer expected.

And the point of Emir Caner's question becomes clear, it is his position that God can't save us without a response from us. Emir Caner's conception of God is something sub-omnipotent. The idea of God saving a free creature without the free creature's prior consent is something that Emir Caner cannot even begin to imagine. Yet it is what the Bible teaches.

Emir Caner then asks:
Does He somehow get more glory by us burning in hell?

I respond:

Try painting the word "glory" in white paint on a white canvas. Now try painting the same word in the same color paint on a black canvas. Does the black canvas or the white canvas better show the word "glory"? If someone will say that the black canvas does, will we reply then that God prefers the color black, and that to maximize the visibility of "glory" God should paint it in black letters on a black canvas? Of course not.

God is glorified in some men burning in hell, and in some men feeding on the lamb.

But what an anthropocentric question is Emir Caner's question!

Why not ask: Is God glorified in His only begotten Son dying on the Cross for sin?!

Yet, the answer is still yes! God sacrificed His son for the eternal life of some of humanity, namely "all believing ones" per John 3:16.

What else does the question reveal? Emir Caner apparently believes that men going to hell brings God less glory than them going to heaven, and that men decide which way to go. Thus, men have power of God to rob Him of His glory. That truly shows you how weak Emir Caner's view of God is.

-Turretinfan

UPDATE:

In fairness to Emir Caner, I should address as well what he submits to the audience after those questions. Emir Caner states:

I would submit that our Lord loves us enough that he allows us to be receptive to or reject.


There are two objections to this answer.

First, God does not just "allow" men to be receptive, as though He gives them permission, God enables some men and women to be receptive to the gospel. For example, God opened Lydia's heart in Acts 16:14

Acts 16:14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.

Job too acknowledged the God could soften his heart in Job 23:16:

Job 23:16 For God maketh my heart soft, and the Almighty troubleth me:

Some folks may object that these verses are not talking about salvation, and I would willingly conceded such a point to such contentious folks. I would allow, for the sake of the argument, that these verses are speaking of something totally different from salvation. Nevertheless, the point is that God does make people receptive and Lydia is an example, and God can (He has the ability to) soften the heart of man.

That's the first half of the objection, that God makes men receptive: that He raises men from spiritual death and open their spiritual ears, as the Psalmist writes:

Psalm 40:6 Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required.

And if some will insist that the Psalmist is referring only to God opening the lobe of the ear with an awl (as was done to servants who loved their masters), then we will point them to the prophet Isaiah:

Isaiah 35:5 Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, and the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped.

And we will point out that this closed-earness is the natural state of man:

Isaiah 48:8 Yea, thou heardest not; yea, thou knewest not; yea, from that time that thine ear was not opened: for I knew that thou wouldest deal very treacherously, and wast called a transgressor from the womb.

The second half of the objection is "God loves us enough to allow us ... to reject him"? That's like saying a mother loves her child enough to allow him to plunge off the edge of a cliff, to fall into a bonfire, or the like. Allowing a child to perish is not (itself) an expression of love for that child.

God is not expressing His love toward a person in the act of passing over that person for salvation. God is expressing His special love toward a person in saving a person. God can and does also express love toward those He does not save, but it is not the same love.

It is truly absurd, when one stops to think about it, to say what Emir Caner said, but it has become so routine in anti-Calvinist churches to make such statements, that the audience listening to Caner didn't collective reply "Say WHAT? God loves them so much He lets them perish?" They should be shocked by such a doctrine, and yet many have been desensitized to the utter confusion of it.

-Turretinfan

Wednesday, March 28, 2007

Persecution Update

I previously noted that I had been restricted from discussing Calvinism on a suite of allegedly Christian web sites. I've now been asked by the same suite of web sites not to discuss the Love of God because it is a Calvinist doctrine.

In an interesting twist, I had posted a quotation from the email that had been provided indicating that I would not be allowed to discuss any Calvinist doctrines, but the post was vandalized by the site's administration, and I was informed in a PM that I should not let people know the contents of emails that are sent to me.

While I'm glad that folks recognize that it is a Calvinist doctrine, it's sad to see the antipathy of men against the truth.

Nevertheless, Praise be to the Lord that we are persecuted for and commanded not to speak the truth! For so persecuted they the prophets and apostles before us!

By the way, I will still post about God's Love here on this blog.

Praise be to our loving Father!

-Turretinfan

P.S. Here is a link to a cached version of the page (this will soon expire ...).

Monday, March 26, 2007

Challenge to Anti-Calvinists: Author of Sin / Author of Salvation

Challenge to Anti-Calvinists:
Author of Sin / Author of Salvation

Many Anti-Calvinists claim that Calvinistic theology makes God the author of sin. Calvinists routinely deny this charge, and explain the difference between being merely a cause of sin, and being the doer of sin.

Too often, however, the focus of the rebuttal is simply on answering the false charge that Calvinism makes God the author of sin. What we sometimes forget is that there are implications to the anti-Calvinist's charges.

They say that if sin happens because God ordained it, then God, not man, is the author of sin.

CHALLENGE
IF you, as an anti-Calvinist make that argument, then answer this:
If that's the standard by which you decide authorship of sin, how do you attribute to God authorship of Salvation, in a way that does not make God the author of sin?

Argument 1) You may say, God is the author of Salvation, because He makes Salvation possible, by giving man a free will and the opportunity to be saved.

Response 1) But God also made Sin possible, by giving man a free will and the opportunity to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Argument 2) You may say, God is the author of Salvation, because Jesus' work is the basis of salvation.

Response 2) I respond:
a) that means that you define authorship one way to attack Calvinism, and another way to define your own doctrine;
b) isn't Jesus' work only part of the basis of salvation in your theology? After all, His work was supposedly for everyone, but not everyone is saved. That means that there is something else that is also a part of salvation: man's free will. Thus, if being a part of the process entitles one to authorship, then God is not "the" but only "an" author of salvation in your theology.
c) if you say that God is the author because he does the first thing along the path to salvation, then isn't God also the author of the rejection of His Son (by that standard) since he also does the first thing along that path, in your system?

Argument 3) God is neither the author of Sin or Salvation.

Response 3) I respond:

Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Praise be to the Author and Finisher of our Faith!

-Turretinfan