Response Regarding Philsophical Language

Response Regarding Philsophical Language

Godismyjudge, some time ago, had responded to my complaint that "libertarian free will" defines the issue only in philosophical terms, and not in terms of ordinary speech. In contrast, Calvinism describes free will in easily understood, ready words of plain English according to their accepted usage.

Godismyjudge writes:

It seems you are reluctant to use philosophical terms to define freewill.

I respond:

It's not that I'm reluctant to use philosophical terms. It's just that if the philosophical terms are to have any use, they must relate back to the real world. In order for that to occur, the terms have to have meaning.

Godismyjudge writes:

This appears to me to be a question of method. I think we have the same goal, clarity. But we are going about clarifying in different ways. I want to use precise, analytical terms, define things and then define the components. You want to use common everyday language.

I respond:

The problem is that when you begin, middle, and end with introspective philosophical jargon without tying back into the real world, you might as well have done a Sodoku puzzle, because the result will have as much to do with theology as such a puzzle does.

Godismyjudge:

Perhaps you take exception to my skills a using philosophical language (as opposed to the overall method). That would be understandable.

I respond:

No, that's not necessarily it. I'm more than a little concerned that some authors, like William Lane Craig, use philosophical jargon to obscure their position. When I read other of the few LFW authors who bother to try to study the matter seriously, I see the same problems. And I'm concerned that it's not always intentional.

Philosophical terms are symbols: they represent something. But many LFW philosophers appear to get lost in the symbols, until they forget what they are supposed to represent. That's why definitions, more definitions, and return to definitions are important if we are going to employ the tools of philosophy to explain a position.

Godismyjudge writes:

I have a hard time seeing you as someone that takes exception at using philosophy to clarify. Particularly since your namesake was a philosophy professor.

I respond:

I would simply disagree that tendency of philosophy is necessarily to clarify. Oftentimes philosophy befuddles more than it clarifies.

Godismyjudge:

In general, Calvinism does not have mass appeal, but it has garnered the support of many of the intellectual elite in Christianity. Augustine, Aquinas, Calvin, Turretin and Edwards are well known as scholars of the highest caliber in Christian community with significant philosophical training and they share similar views on predestination and freedom. To me, that's what makes Calvinism interesting.

I respond:

I'm not going to debate the mass appeal topic. I do think that the more one studies the Bible, the more Calvinistic one will become, because Calvinism is simply a restatement of the truth of Scripture. I don't necessarily put much stock in whether Calvin or the others were clever men. Even the uneducated Bunyan was a marvelously eloquent Calvinist preacher who simply studied the Bible.

Godismyjudge wrote:

Beyond my surprise at your approach, perhaps it would be helpful if I explained why I think a philosophical method is helpful. First off we are trying to define freewill. The term autexousiou itself originated from Platonic philosophers and is not found in the New Testament. The term was introduced into Christianity I believe by Justin Martyr. (to my knowledge) It was introduce in a debate against Stoic philosophers, Justin being schooled in Platonic philosophy. So the term comes to us with philosophical roots and it seems appropriate to use philosophical methods to understand it.

I respond:

I don't completely agree with your history. The freewill/predestination debate was alive and well in Josephus' day, with the Pharisees (among which Paul numbered himself) apparently taking the compatibilist view and the Saducees taking the view of complete human autonomy. Whether Justin borrowed the term from Platonists or recast the term in Christian light, who knows. In any event, if we wanted to view the term etymologically, we could go back and examing the writings of Plato and the Platonists, as well as Justin's own use of the word.

I don't think that such an investigation would be enormously helpful. What is more important is whether the term corresponds to the truth of Scriptures.

Godismyjudge writes:

Second, the specific context in which are trying to understand freewill is its compatibility with the foreknowledge of God. This is an abstract subject to say the least and it's not one that comes up in everyday conversation. So it's not surprising that a technical approach to defining terms is preferable to common usage meanings derived from other contexts.

I respond:

The issue of compatability may not come up in everyday conversation. Neither does the repair of Bible bindings. Nevertheless, if a bookbinder presented the process using only technical jargon, his comments would be useless. The bookbinder needs to explain things in terms that correspond to reality. Perhaps by "medium" the bookbinder may be referring to the fact that the Bible is paper bound in leather, perhaps he means that the Bible is stitched with catgut. Who knows? Until, of course, the bookbinder explains his terms.

Godismyjudge writes:

Third, philosophies role in general is to explain things. As Christians we start from ground truth: the Scriptures. But the bible isn't a textbook on how foreknowledge and freewill fit together. Philosophy is the method used to reconcile truths we accept by faith.

I respond:
Philosophy has the role of exploring things, more than explaining them. We do start from the truth of Scripture, and we build on that with reasoning. The Bible is not a textbook, but there are nevertheless discussions on the compatibility between human agency and divine predetermination. The questions that need to be asked have Biblical answers. Furthermore, when we decide what is man's will - we can look to the Bible for information to answer that question. Finally, when someone presents a definition of "free will," we can analyze it to see whether it has internal consistency, common sense consistency, and Scriptural consistency.

Godismyjudge writes:

Fourth, most Calvinist/Arminian debates are full of equivocation, context dropping, straw man arguments and general confusion. As a result they tend to generate more heat than light. Using common speech, agreement or event mutual understanding has not been obtained. To avoid equivocation, careful definitions must be put forward and stuck to. Even if agreement cannot be reached via philosophy, perhaps just understanding where the other guy is coming from would help.

I respond:

Definitions are certainly important to avoid equivocation, but then again, that's also what we have each other for. If I begin to equivocate, I trust you will call me on it. I will certainly try to do the same for you. But your response hits the nail on the head, to a large degree. We need definitions.

And I have asked you for a definition of the philosophical term "free will," from the LFW perspective. Yet most, if not all, of the responses I have received from you have employed philosophical jargon, which in turn must be defined, and so forth, ad infinitum with result being that ultimately no definition is provided, but only a chain of caveats.

Godismyjudge writes:

This question of method really pauses the debate. I am not sure how to move foreword. You have asked what I mean by freewill and necessity. I have provided "common speech" definitions (the ability to do otherwise and "cannot be otherwise") but you request more.

I respond:

These definitions, however, either do not stand up to intellectual scrutiny (if pushed one way) or are adoptable with ease by any Calvinist (if pushed another way). For example, those definitions are not good English, because they do not specify the "than" that an "otherwise" requires.

Of course, what I am pushing you towards by pointing out the inconsistencies and mistakes in some of the definitions, and what your recent posts seem to have acknowledged, is that LFW is actually not about freedom and necessity. It is about whether man has the final role in deciding his future, or whether God has the final role in deciding man's future.

Godismyjudge writes:

I provided details via Freddoso, but his method is philosophical. I can't go deeper without using a philosophical method. On the other hand you won't use a philosophical method to define freewill.

I respond:

I think this issue may mostly be moot in view of our discussion in the meantime.

Godismyjudge writes:

I don't know if choice is a physical reaction or if it has it's origin in an immaterial soul. I have no way of determining if your use of testing and interacting with machines is equivocating. I don't know if we agree or disagree on the definition of freewill.

I respond:

Hopefully these issues are becoming more clear as we progress.

Godismyjudge writes:

I also know not to touch the subject of then sense in which the future "is" using common speech. It's not a subject that comes up in common speech.

I respond:

Ah, but it is. After all, tomorrow will be another day.

-Turretinfan