Thursday, April 23, 2009

Augustine vs. Albrecht on the Bodily Presence - Round 2

This is video response to William Albrecht's two videos ( video 1 and video 2 ) responding to previous videos of mine, responding to a still previous video of his.

I continue to point out Mr. Albrecht's errors. I have 11 points:

1) The issue is bodily presence vs. spiritual presence (not real presence vs. bare symbolism).

2) The issue of the "authority of the Catholic Chruch" is a misleading red herring, because Augustine meant the universal church, not the Roman Catholic Church.

3) When Augustine speaks of "divine presence" that does not mean or imply (quite the contrary) a bodily presence, because a body is not part of the divine nature but the human nature of Christ.

4) Mr. Albrecht (not myself) is the one who seems to need to try to turn Augustine into a Roman Catholic. I just take Augustine as I find him.

5) Mr. Albrecht refuses to let the Westminster Confession speak for itself, even when it clearly and explicitly states that the position is a real, yet spiritual, presence.

6) Mr. Albrecht confuses the real Francis Turretin's rejection of consubstantiation with a rejection of the spiritual presence (although Turretin actually affirms this, even in the snippets he quotes, if you listen carefully).

7) Mr. Albrecht errs in suggesting that the Latin word for Spiritual ever means or implies, in Augustine, "corporeal presence" - quite the opposite.

8) Mr. Albrecht still does not seem to "get" that statements like "after the consecreation the bread is [or becomes] the Body of Christ" is something that is consistent with not only the view of transubstantiation, but also with the Reformed view (real spiritual presence) and even the bare symbolic view (which is why I would never try to base my argument on such passages of Augustine if I were disputing this matter with a person who holds to the odd and incorrect position that Augustine held to a bare symbolic view).

9) Albrecht had said: "The great Augustine can no longer be twisted into a pretzel because TurretinFan has run out of ways to rip him apart. Perhaps he'll resort to taking quotes away from him or mutilating what Augustine says, such as his boss Mr. [sic] White has done to advance his theological views in the past." I note that although this is untrue and analogically inconsistent (the metaphors of "twist[ing] into a pretzel" and "rip[ping] apart" are incompatible physically), nevetheless the quotation provides an illustration of the fact that somewhere deep inside Albrecht recognizes that people can use figurative language, although he does not seem to want to let Christ and/or Augustine do so, when it is necessary to press them into service for his church.

10) Mr. Albrecht claims that there are "hundreds of thousands of denominations" - a number so wildly inflated it makes the usual, grossly inflated claim of 33,000 denominations seem almost truthful (for more on the 33,000 denominations myth, see the following website (link)).

11) Mr. Albrecht, in wrapping up, seems still to be a bit sore about his friend Mr. Steve Ray and himself getting busted for citing Pseudo-Athanasius as though it were Athanasius.



-TurretinFan

4 comments:

Anonymous said...

You guys are both wrong, read the augsburg confession. :)

Turretinfan said...

:) For Francis Turretin's discussion on the position presented by the Augsburg confession (and the source of Albrecht's quotations) see the following (link).

Enjoy!

-TurretinFan

natamllc said...

TF

again, I maintain that the only reason Satan needs a purely "human" body is so that his deceit can carry to the heart and kill the Life of God by deception in the man.

The only one who can kill the Life of God in my heart is me. Why would I do that seeing the great loss it brings and the punishment for turning away from and thus living against God? The lies of the enemies of God and man, that's why! I tremble just considering how deceived I have been and had not a clue about it!

That death, sadly I have to admit, has happened a few times within me.

Now I am comfortable with the Words of the Holy Ghost Who teaches me that "picking" up the Cross He has for me, that yoke that is easy and that burden that is light, [as in not heavy or burdensome] is my sole Salvation in this life's body and now I am at Peace with God and man. Also it is because I have accepted the fact that the counterfeit god is at work through his "work", the RCC. I truly believe many of God's Called, Elected Saints will be delivered from such deception because of work such as this that you are doing!

I know that those words carry "death and life" in them, that is that "deception" is working in the hearts of many and not just within the RCC.

I am sorry that that is the way it is. Well, I am sorry somewhat or rather, burdened for the souls of men who have accepted this teaching as Gospel Truth.

There is one Body. He has come to the earth, His creation, to become a man and now that He has fulfilled the Will of God, He has risen so He now enlarges His Tent, you might say:

Psa 40:6 In sacrifice and offering you have not delighted, but you have given me an open ear. Burnt offering and sin offering you have not required.
Psa 40:7 Then I said, "Behold, I have come; in the scroll of the book it is written of me:
Psa 40:8 I delight to do your will, O my God; your law is within my heart."
Psa 40:9 I have told the glad news of deliverance in the great congregation; behold, I have not restrained my lips, as you know, O LORD.
Psa 40:10 I have not hidden your deliverance within my heart; I have spoken of your faithfulness and your salvation; I have not concealed your steadfast love and your faithfulness from the great congregation.

I believe the distinction is found in verse 9 with regard to Augustine and his "word" to the Catholic Church not this RCC work that attempts to confound the Truth, His Body, with deception and spewing forth what is false about Him and His Body?

Now I will issue a warning to Mr. Albrecht with the "Eternal" Word of God found there in Psalm 40 too. And in disgust, I say, "enough is enough" and be warned prophetically:

Psa 40:14 Let those be put to shame and disappointed altogether who seek to snatch away my life; let those be turned back and brought to dishonor who delight in my hurt!
Psa 40:15 Let those be appalled because of their shame who say to me, "Aha, Aha!"

Mr. Albrecht, it is because of the Mercies of the Lord that you are not by now consumed, seeing your videos betray you to the Word above. Why? Because of your shame as you say "Aha, Aha!" and by so doing, you are attempting to "snatch away" the Words of Life from others.

Yes, there "was" a body that came from the Virgin's Womb. She was visited by Our God and as the prophecy reveals, [see above], in the volumn of the Book it is written of Him that He has come and "fulfilled" the Will of God for His Elect.

As Satan has rejected the Will of God, so I say that you, Sir, are very close to doing the same, if, in fact, you have done so already?

There shall come a death for all of us. To the one, Eternal Life, the gift of Knowing the Only True God and Jesus Christ, Whom He sent to put to death that sacrificial system. To the other only Eternal Damnation awaits them, which is reserved for Satan and his demons and all whose names are not written in the Book of Life.

Heed the warnings. Heed them. Not because of me or you, but rather, because the warnings are in the Word of His Life in the "Body" and now, by His True Spirit for us that we might repent of any and all deceptions concocted and portrayed by the enemies of God and man to every generation.

Turretinfan said...

"Orthodox" asked: "Are you seriously suggesting Augustine didn't believe in the real bodily presence?"

I'm not just suggesting it, I'm declaring it boldly and openly, having already defeated the usual ridiculous arguments to the contrary in the previous response to Albrecht.

-TurretinFan