Thursday, May 05, 2011

Proof that Rome is a Sect of Islam

Steve provides an argument (from Bnonn, I think) that tries to prove that those in the Roman communion actually worship Allah. The argument hinges on a statement made by the Second Vatican Council and affirmed in the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

The logic of the argument seems sound, but the conclusion is obviously absurd.

There are a few possible responses to such a reduction to absurdity. One is just to decry the conclusion is absurd and move on. This way is the way of someone who doesn't understand the significance of a reduction to absurdity. The point is not really to affirm the absurdity as truth, but to demonstrate an inconsistency. The first response is not legitimate at all.

A second way to respond to a reduction to absurdity is to challenge the reduction. Perhaps the argument doesn't really reduce to absurdity. After all, there is no need to accept an argument just because Steve Hays (or Bnonn or whoever) made it: even though he's a smart guy, we don't invest him with infallibility. This is a legitimate response, or at least it can be.

This particular case, however, may present us with a case where we should look at the third category of responses. When the conclusion is absurd, and the reasoning is sound, we need to acknowledge that there is an inconsistency or error. Why not just admit that Vatican II was fallible and wrong? That seems to be the most reasonable conclusion to draw.



steve said...

Because people had difficulty with the link, I reproduced Bnonn's entire argument verbatim. So he gets all the credit.

steve said...

If (a la Vatican II) Muslims worship the same God as Catholics, then, by converse logic, Catholics worship the same God as Muslims. Hence, Catholics are Muslims.

Coram Deo said...

In such a case might we expect Mother Rome to beatify bin Laden?


John Bugay said...

In such a case might we expect Mother Rome to beatify bin Laden?

They might do an investigation, and if they find that he "sought God with a sincere heart," and "tried in his action to do God's will as he knew it through the dictates of his conscience..."

As the CCC (847) says, "Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience – those too may achieve eternal salvation."

c.t. said...

I've sometimes thought that the average Muslim worships God as He presents Himself to the nations, as El Elyon, God Most High, whereas the Jihadist, the true believer in the Koran, worships that 7th century moon god false idol known as Allah, which is, in effect, Satan by another name.

Not saying recognizing God as El Elyon can bring salvation.

c.t. said...

I got the above notion from a book on the names of God. I recognize there are problems re salvation with such a view. Havn't really thought it through. Like for instance, why would God show Himself as El Elyon to a people when that wouldn't translation into salvation for any of them? I don't know what I'm talking about, but there might be something there to think about...

Ken said...

John B,
That was brilliant - those two sections (one on the Muslims and one one on those "through no fault of their own" in 847) in the RCC Catechism are two of the clearest expressions of real change from pre-Vatican 2 to post Vatican 2.

Randall van der Sterren said...

Doesn't Rome make parallel moves toward Judaism as it does toward Islam? From a few grafs above what Steve quotes:

"And when one considers the future, God's People of the Old Covenant and the new People of God tend towards similar goals: expectation of the coming (or the return) of the Messiah. But one awaits the return of the Messiah who died and rose from the dead and is recognized as Lord and Son of God; the other awaits the coming of a Messiah, whose features remain hidden till the end of time; and the latter waiting is accompanied by the drama of not knowing or of misunderstanding Christ Jesus."

Anonymous said...

"If (a la Vatican II) Muslims worship the same God as Catholics, then, by converse logic, Catholics worship the same God as Muslims. Hence, Catholics are Muslims."

Interesting logic. Do Catholics and Protestants worship the same God? Did Luther switch God when he broke away from the Catholic Church? If no and yes respectively, how many Gods are there actually and how many of them did Steve create? If we find a Protestant who believes that Catholics and Protestants worship the same God, is such a Protestant also a Muslim? This merely explains how Protestantism started - use of incredible logic.

Turretinfan said...


You may want to re-read the post. The point of the post seems to have gone over your head.