Trent asserts:
And if any one affirm, that all Christians indiscriminately are priests of the New Testament ... he clearly does nothing but confound the ecclesiastical hierarchy ... .(Session 23, Chapter 4)
Scripture
Scripture declares:
Exodus 19:5-6 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: and ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.
Revelation 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
Revelation 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
1 Peter 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
1 Peter 2:9-10
But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.
Tradition
Trent is also contrary to much of tradition. I ought to qualify this by pointing out that I do not think that the fathers had some special source of revelation that we do not, such that their works represent Apostolic tradition obtained elsewhere than Scripture. Still, they are part of our tradition - something that has been handed down to us.
Victorinus (d. circa 303), "Commentary on the Apocalypse of the Blessed John," at Revelation 1:6 (link):
“And He made us a kingdom and priests unto God and His Father.”] That is to say, a Church of all believers; as also the Apostle Peter says: “A holy nation, a royal priesthood.”
Alternative translation (Ancient Christian Texts, Greek Commentaries on Revelation, p. 1):
And "he has made us a kingdom and priests," that is, the whole church of the faithful, as the apostle Peter says: "a holy nation, a royal priesthood."
Apringius of Beja (6th Century), "Explanation of the Revelation by the Most Learned Man, Apringius, Bishop of the Church at Pax [Julia]" at Revelation 1:6 (Ancient Christian Texts, Latin Commentaries on Revelation, p. 25:
And he made us a kingdom, priests to his God and Father. Because he suffered and rose from the dead for us, he made us to be a kingdom that we might merit to be priests of God the Father. For he makes us to be a kingdom, since he suffered and rose again.Apringius of Beja (6th Century), "Explanation of the Revelation by the Most Learned Man, Apringius, Bishop of the Church at Pax [Julia]" at Revelation 20:6 (Ancient Christian Texts, Latin Commentaries on Revelation, p. 50:
Indeed, concerning those over whom the second death has no power, it says, they shall be priests of God, and they shall reign with him a thousand years. All those who shall have been in the congregation of the saints shall be called saints, and they shall be priests of Christ our God, and they shall reign with him in the strength of the cross and in the sovereignty of his might.
Caesarius of Arles (468/470 – 542), "Exposition on the Apocalypse" at Revelation 1:6 (Ancient Christian Texts, Latin Commentaries on Revelation, pp. 63-64):
"He made us," it says, "to be a kingdom and priests to God." When it speaks of priests to God, it refers to the whole church, as Saint Peter said: "You are an elect people, a royal priesthood."Bede the Venerable (672/673 – 735), "The Exposition of the Apocalypse by Bede the Presbyter" at Revelation 1:6 (Ancient Christian Texts, Latin Commentaries on Revelation, p. 115):
And he made us a kingdom and priests to his God and Father. Since the King of kings and the celestial Priest united us to his own body by offering himself up for us, there is no one of the saints who is spiritually deprived of the office of the priesthood, since everyone is a member of the eternal Priest.Bede the Venerable (672/673 – 735), "The Exposition of the Apocalypse by Bede the Presbyter" at Revelation 20:6 (Ancient Christian Texts, Latin Commentaries on Revelation, p. 179):
But they shall be saints of God and of Christ. Another translation reads "they shall be priests of God and of Christ." However, this is said not only of bishops and presbyters, who are properly called priests in the church. Rather, just as all are said to be of Christ on account of the mystical chrism, so also all are priests since we are members of the one Priest. Concerning the members of Christ the apostle Peter says, "a holy nation, a royal priesthood."Bede the Venerable (672/673 – 735), "Commentary on the Seven Catholic Epistles" (Cisterian Studies Series: Number 82), Commentary on 1 Peter at 1 Peter 2:5 (p. 84):
Yet when he had said, You are to be built up into the edifice, or, 'a spiritual house', he added, A holy priesthood, in order that he may very clearly urge us, being ourselves a holy priesthood, to be built upon the foundation of Christ. Therefore, he calls the entire Church a holy priesthood, a name and office that the house of Aaron alone had under the law, because namely we are all members of the high priest, we all are signed with the oil of gladness; there applies to all what he appends: To offer spiritual sacrificial victims acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. Yet he calls our work of alms-giving and prayers spiritual sacrificial victims to distinguish them from the bodily victims under the law.
Oecumenius (Seventh Century), "Commentary on the Apocalypse" at Revelation 1:6 (Ancient Christian Texts, Greek Commentaries on Revelation, p. 5):
To him who loved us and has washed us from our sins by his blood and made for us a kingdom, priests to God and his prophets, to him be glory and power forever and ever Amen. The arrangement of this saying moves backward from what is last to that which is first. It says, "to him who loved us be glory and power." For how did he not love us "who gave himself as a ransom" for the life of the world? [And to him be glory] "who has washed us from our sins by his blood." For he took "the bond that stood against us with its demands and nailed it to the wood of his cross," paying in full for our sins with his own death and setting us free from transgressions by his blood and healing our disobedience by his submission to death, even the death of the cross.Oecumenius (7th Century), "Commentary on the Apocalypse" at Revelation 20:6 (Ancient Christian Texts, Greek Commentaries on Revelation, p. 90):
"He made for us a kingdom." What benefit is there for us to become "priests to God and his prophets"? That people might be made worthy of these things he makes certain for us the coming kingdom and in the present time procures for us unspeakable glory. This is even greater and more marvelous and noteworthy than the divine gift of his washing away our sins by his own blood, that we who brought nothing for such a gift would be made priests of God and prophets.
The faithful, it says, "shall be priests of God and of Christ." For all the faithful were appointed priests of the word of the gospel, and concerning these the prophet, playing the prophetic lyre, said, "You will make them princes over all the earth."
Andrew of Caesarea (563 – 637), "Commentary on the Apocalypse," Book I, Chapter 1 at Revelation 1:6 (Ancient Christian Texts, Greek Commentaries on Revelation, p. 116):
To him who loved us and has freed us from our sins by his blood and made us kings and priests to his God and Father, to him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.It is fitting, he says, to give glory to him who through his love has freed us from the chains of death and has washed us from the filth of sin by the outpouring of his life-giving blood and water and has made us a royal priesthood bringing to the Father the living sacrifice of a reasonable service, rather than the sacrifice of irrational beasts.
Augustine (354 – 430), City of God, Book 17, Chapter 5 (link)
What then does he say who comes to worship the priest of God, even the Priest who is God? “Put me into one part of Thy priesthood, to eat bread.” I do not wish to be set in the honor of my fathers, which is none; put me in a part of Thy priesthood. For “I have chosen to be mean in Thine house;”1020 I desire to be a member, no matter what, or how small, of Thy priesthood. By the priesthood he here means the people itself, of which He is the Priest who is the Mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.1021 This people the Apostle Peter calls “a holy people, a royal priesthood.”Augustine (354 – 430), Expositions on the Psalms, Psalm 132, Section 20 (link):
“I will clothe her priests with salvation, and her saints shall rejoice and sing” (ver. 16). We are now at the end of the Psalm; attend for a short space, Beloved. “I will clothe her priests with salvation, and her saints shall rejoice and sing.” Who is our salvation, save our Christ? What meaneth, therefore, “I will clothe her priests with salvation”? “As many of you as have been baptized into Christ, have put on Christ.”Augustine (354 – 430), Reply to Faustus the Manichaean, Book 22, Chapter 89 (link):
As He saith also in Hosea, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there shall they be called the children of the living God." Here Paul applies the prophecy to the Gentiles. So also Peter, writing to the Gentiles, without naming the prophet, borrows his expressions when he says, "But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye might show forth the praises of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvellous light; which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy." From this it is plain that the words of the prophet, "And the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured for multitude," and the words immediately following, "And it shall be that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there they shall be called the children of the living God," do not apply to that Israel which is after the flesh, but to that of which the apostle says to the Gentiles, "Ye therefore are the seed of Abraham, and heirs according to the promise."Jerome (347 – 420), The Dialogue Against the Luciferians (link):
I will answer you in your own words. If a layman confesses his error, how is it he continues a layman? Let him lay aside his lay-priesthood, that is, his baptism, and I grant pardon to the penitent. For it is written “He made us to be a kingdom, to be priests unto his God and Father.” And again, “A holy nation, a royal priesthood, an elect race.” Everything which is forbidden to a Christian, is forbidden to both bishop and layman. He who does penance condemns his former life. If a penitent bishop may not continue what he was, neither may a penitent layman remain in that state on account of which he confesses himself a penitent.Fragments of Clemens Alexandrinus (c. 150 – c.215) (via the Latin translation of Cassiodorus, c. 490 – c. 583), Comments on 1 Peter 2:9 (link)
“But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood.”3727 That we are a chosen race by the election of God is abundantly clear. He says royal, because we are called to sovereignty and belong to Christ; and priesthood on account of the oblation which is made by prayers and instructions, by which are gained the souls which are offered to God.
Leo the Great (c. 391 or 400 – 461), Sermon 24, Section 6 (On the Feast of the Nativity, IV) (link):
But you, dearly beloved, whom I address in no less earnest terms than those of the blessed Apostle Peter, “a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession,” built upon the impregnable rock, Christ, and joined to the Lord our Saviour by His true assumption of our flesh, remain firm in that Faith, which you have professed before many witnesses, and in which you were reborn through water and the Holy Ghost, and received the anointing of salvation, and the seal of eternal life.
Leo the Great (c. 391 or 400 – 461), Book of Pastoral Rule, "Of the Life of the Pastor," Chapter 3 (link):
With gold and blue, purple also is mingled: which means, that the priest’s heart, while hoping for the high things which he preaches, should repress in itself even the suggestions of vice, and as it were in virtue of a royal power, rebut them, in that he has regard ever to the nobility of inward regeneration, and by his manners guards his right to the robe of the heavenly kingdom. For it is of this nobility of the spirit that it is said through Peter, Ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood (1 Pet. ii. 9).
Tertullian (c. 160 – c. 225), De Exhortatione Castitatis (writing as a Montanist against second marriages for laymen), 7:
... Are not we laymen priests also? It is written: 'He hath also made us a kingdom and priests to God and his Father.' The difference between the Order and the people is due to the authority of the church and the consecration of their rank by the reservation of a special bench for the order. Thus where there is no bench of clergy you offer and baptize and are your own sole priest. For where there are three, there is a church, though they be laymen. Therefore if you have the rights to a priest in your own person when necessity arises, you ought likewise to have the discipline of a priest, where it is necessary to exercise his rights. ...
So, which will and should you accept? Trent's bold claim or the seemingly consistent testimony both of Scripture and the fathers?
- TurretinFan
24 comments:
Your whole argument eradicates the real distinction between the 'kingdom of priests' from Exodus 19:5f (which all other texts are drawing from) and the Levitical/Aaronic priesthood, including the high priest. In other words, by your own logic, Exodus 19:5f makes all Jews the same type and rank of priest as the Levites.
That cannot be right.
I don't think God's Holy Word would make such a blunder, nor do I believe the Fathers would; and if so, neither did Trent.
Nick: My argument doesn't eradicate the distinction between the true priesthood of believers and the typological priesthood of the OT, rather it emphasizes that distinction. Thanks for your thoughts. - TurretinFan
Oh, Turretinfan, there you go worrying about such silly little things like what words mean and what the scriptural categories for things are. Silly.
And I will bet you dollars to donuts both Nick and Andrew are died/dyed in the wool Romanists?
In humble accolades to your thread, TF, I acknowledge I am more drawn to Bede the Venerable than the rest.
In response to Nick and Andrew, there are some verses I would put over that makes it clear for me and from the place of the Priesthood I hail that your thinking is a bit askew:
Act 3:22 Moses said, 'The Lord God will raise up for you a prophet like me from your brothers. You shall listen to him in whatever he tells you.
Act 3:23 And it shall be that every soul who does not listen to that prophet shall be destroyed from the people.'
Act 3:24 And all the prophets who have spoken, from Samuel and those who came after him, also proclaimed these days.
Act 4:1 And as they were speaking to the people, the priests and the captain of the temple and the Sadducees came upon them,
Act 4:2 greatly annoyed because they were teaching the people and proclaiming in Jesus the resurrection from the dead.
I think if we don't set aside our personal opinion about the Priesthood and embrace this Prophet, Priest and King Moses, Peter and John speak about to the children of God what I point to next will just go right over your head and you, too, might find yourself a bit more annoyed than they (the priests and the captain of the temple and the Sadducees)?
1Sa 2:2 "There is none holy like the LORD; there is none besides you; there is no rock like our God.
1Sa 2:8 He raises up the poor from the dust; he lifts the needy from the ash heap to make them sit with princes and inherit a seat of honor. For the pillars of the earth are the LORD's, and on them he has set the world.
1Sa 2:25 If someone sins against a man, God will mediate for him, but if someone sins against the LORD, who can intercede for him?" But they would not listen to the voice of their father, for it was the will of the LORD to put them to death.
1Sa 2:26 Now the young man Samuel continued to grow both in stature and in favor with the LORD and also with man.
1Sa 2:35 And I will raise up for myself a faithful priest, who shall do according to what is in my heart and in my mind. And I will build him a sure house, and he shall go in and out before my anointed forever.
Me thinks TF, you have established well by the Scriptures you have drawn from and from those writers you quote that 1 Samuel 2 and the verses I point out in that chapter have come to pass and are very relevant for today, especially verse 35?
How could Moses call Israel as a whole a kingdom of priests if there was a Levitical priesthood and yet rule out any such possibility of a distinction when the NT believers as a whole are called a kingdom of priests?
Greetings in Christ, Turretin Fan!
Here is the Catechism of the Council of Trent discussing the priesthood of believers:
“[T]he Apostle Peter says of all the faithful: ‘You are a chosen generation, a kingly priesthood, a holy nation’…
“Regarding the internal priesthood, all the faithful are said to be priests, once they have been washed in the saving waters of Baptism. Especially is this name given to the just who have the Spirit of God, and who, by the help of divine grace, have been made living members of the great High-priest, Jesus Christ; for, enlightened by faith which is inflamed by charity, they offer up spiritual sacrifices to God on the altar of their hearts. Among such sacrifices must be reckoned every good and virtuous action done for the glory of God.
“Hence we read in the Apocalypse: ‘Christ hath washed us from our sins in his own blood and hath made us a kingdom, and priests to God and his Father.’ In like manner was it said by the Prince of the Apostles: ‘Be you also as living stones built up, a spiritual house a holy priesthood offering up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God by Jesus Christ’; while the Apostle exhorts us to present our bodies ‘a living sacrifice holy, pleasing unto God your reasonable service.’ And long before this David had said: ‘A sacrifice to God is an afflicted spirit: a contrite and humble heart O God thou wilt not despise.’ All this clearly regards the internal priesthood” (The Catechism of the Council of Trent: The Sacrament of Holy Orders).
With love in Christ,
Pete
Which is it? Is the "order" of membership as the RCC teaches that one becomes a member of Christ's Church or as the Holy Spirit teaches?
Can you lay out the point by point process one goes through to become a member of your church?
Mr. Holter: Good catch! It's not just the council vs. prior tradition! So, are you going to go with the Catechism or the council itself on this one? -TurretinFan
"How could Moses call Israel as a whole a kingdom of priests if there was a Levitical priesthood and yet rule out any such possibility of a distinction when the NT believers as a whole are called a kingdom of priests?" (a) where do I argue that; and (b) this looks like an argument from ignorance (i.e. you do not know how it could be, therefore it is wrong - that's a fallacy).
Hi Turretin Fan!
I think that this is a false dichotomy. In the quote from the Council of Trent, the ministerial priesthood is in view; and in the quotes from the Catechism of the Council of Trent and the Fathers, the priesthood of all believers is in view. I think that it is wrong to try to frame them as being in contradiction with one another.
With love in Christ,
Pete
You said: "where do I argue that [a distinction between Kingdom Priests and Ministerial Priests is ruled out]"?
You argued this as the main thesis of your opening post. Your argument (at least to me) was that since there is a Kingdom of Priests, i.e. all believers, then there could not be a Ministerial Priesthood.
The only alternative is that your argument is that Trent as saying Kingdom of Priests is an unbiblical concept, but that fails because Trent was never saying that.
TurretinFan,
Great post as always! The good thing about Rome is that they have a plethora of literature and that creates a serious problem for them. Keep up the good work brother.
Travis (AnotherChristianBlog.org)
Trent does not eliminate the "priesthood of all believers", and the Fathers clearly believed in the "ministerial priesthood" (they call the ministers "priests" since the first centuries).
Nick,
again, confusing!
Your author apparently is not the God of the Bible as He is not the author of confusion.
Let's step back in time and consider "Joab", the great "Jewish" General during the reign of King David, who (King David) himself went in and partook of the bread of the presence which was solely set aside for the priesthood?
Remember King Solomon's decree?
Here, consider what is being taught by this record of the Scriptures with regard to Joab and his intimate sense of relationship with the God of Israel, he being a son of Israel, too:
1Ki_2:28 When the news came to Joab--for Joab had supported Adonijah although he had not supported Absalom--Joab fled to the tent of the LORD and caught hold of the horns of the altar.
1Ki_2:29 And when it was told King Solomon, "Joab has fled to the tent of the LORD, and behold, he is beside the altar," Solomon sent Benaiah the son of Jehoiada, saying, "Go, strike him down."
1Ki_2:30 So Benaiah came to the tent of the LORD and said to him, "The king commands, 'Come out.'" But he said, "No, I will die here." Then Benaiah brought the king word again, saying, "Thus said Joab, and thus he answered me."
1Ki_2:31 The king replied to him, "Do as he has said, strike him down and bury him, and thus take away from me and from my father's house the guilt for the blood that Joab shed without cause.
Now, every Jew and every Gentile related to Jesus Christ by being born again and conjoined to Him by the work of the Spirit, when facing death naturally or otherwise, fully expects to come before the God of Israel in the afterlife to enter into that Eternal Priesthood that awaits every soul of man destined to this Eternal Glory in Christ.
I suppose the purpose of God once established is relevant at everyone's moment of time, too?
The function of the symbolic priesthood established by God through Moses and Aaron (the Levitical Priesthood) does not set aside the reality of God's Elect and Eternal Priesthood. The work of the Law of Righteousness is to bring clarity to the problem of the fallen human race. What was temporally set up gave way to the Eternal service as is indicated this way in Scripture:
Heb 9:11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come, then through the greater and more perfect tent (not made with hands, that is, not of this creation)
Heb 9:12 he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.
Heb 9:13 For if the blood of goats and bulls, and the sprinkling of defiled persons with the ashes of a heifer, sanctify for the purification of the flesh,
Heb 9:14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God.
Heb 9:15 Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.
The perspicuity of Scripture brings this out all the while the RCC blurs it so well by the nature of your religion and religious practices by the pope, the cardinals, the bishops, the priests and down the line we go to the religious man on the street and just outside the womb when the baby is baptized into the RCC.
Ricnsr: So was it just a typo in the portion of Trent that I quoted?
Nick, Nick, Nick:
No. I argued that Trent was wrong to say this: "And if any one affirm, that all Christians indiscriminately are priests of the New Testament ... he clearly does nothing but confound the ecclesiastical hierarchy ... ."
But either one can affirm that while doing something other than confounding the ecclesiastical hierarchy, or one should confound the ecclesiastical hierarchy. But one certainly ought to affirm that all Christians indiscriminately are priests of the New Testament. That's what the Scriptures teach, that's what Tradition teaches as well.
-TurretinFan
So, Pete: can one affirm that all Christians indiscriminately are priests of the New Testament? It seems like you answer that affirmatively (with John Paul 2, I might add). If so, Trent has stated something that is not true as they wrote it.
It might be better to quote more of that text that you chopped up:
"And if any one affirm, that all Christians indiscriminately are priests of the New Testament, or that they are all mutually endowed with an equal spiritual power, he clearly does nothing but confound the ecclesiastical hierarchy, which is as an army set in array; as if, contrary to the doctrine of blessed Paul, all were apostles, all prophets, all evangelists, all pastors, all doctors."
Trent is using "priests" in the sense of ministerial priests, in between the believers (priests in some sense, in both the OT and NT--both are called a kingdom of priests) and the High Priest (now Jesus Christ). Analogous to this situation would be if Trent used "priests" to discuss the Levitical priesthood of Israel, which would NOT deny that Israel is in some sense a "kingdom of priests." It is a narrower sense of the word "priest" that Trent uses."
Ryan: Can we agree that there is an "or" between those two parts?
Hi, Turretin Fan! Were you raised in a Reformed Christian environment?
We affirm that all Christians are priests through the offering of our bodies as a living sacrifice in Christ to the praise of the grace of God. We “are consecrated for the royal priesthood and the holy people (cf. 1 Peter 2:4-10) not only that [we] may offer spiritual sacrifices in everything [we] do but also that [we] may witness to Christ throughout the world” (Apostolicam Actuositatem, 3). But we cannot affirm that we are all priests in such a way as to deny that there is a hierarchy in the Church ordained through the laying on of hands. We are all priests in our High Priest; but, as Trent is pointing out here, we distinguish among ourselves, one priest from another. We believe that “[t]he ministerial priest, by the sacred power he enjoys, teaches and rules the priestly people; acting in the person of Christ, he makes present the eucharistic sacrifice, and offers it to God in the name of all the people. But the faithful, in virtue of their royal priesthood, join in the offering of the Eucharist. They likewise exercise that priesthood in receiving the sacraments, in prayer and thanksgiving, in the witness of a holy life, and by self-denial and active charity” (Lumen Gentium, 10).
With love in Christ,
Pete
Turretinfan,
Yes, there is an "or." Neither all Christians are "indiscriminately priests" in the sense that Trent is using the word "priests" in a session on the ministerial priesthood, nor are all Christians imbued with equal spiritual power. For example, some, not all, may bind and loose in heaven and on earth (Matthew 18:18). Some, not all, may forgive OR RETAIN sins (John 20:23).
Imagine you were to write a document specifically discussing the Levitical priesthood, and you said "to say that all Israelites are indiscriminately priests of the Old Testament...is to confound the ecclesiastical hierarchy." While the OT kingdom is called the exact same as the NT kingdom--a kingdom of priests--it is appropriate to use "priests" in a more specific sense in such situations.
Ryan
Ryan, while I think I follow your logic, I have to say I don't believe it to be true!
If you recall, when Christ came, there came a "change" in the Law not the power of the Law; that power of the Law that curses all men, including all those of the Tribe of Levi.
What was changed, then? The application of the Law and its uses in everyday life.
The application and its uses have simply been simplified by the simplicity of the Gospel!
Now, all the Elect, after the time of His resurrection, as those priests, [Acts 6] began walking in an entirely new obedience, not to the Law of Righteousness but in the Righteousness of our now Resurrected Christ, alone:
Act 6:7 And the word of God continued to increase, and the number of the disciples multiplied greatly in Jerusalem, and a great many of the priests became obedient to the faith.
Saying, "...nor are all Christians imbued with equal spiritual power. For example, some, not all, may bind and loose in heaven and on earth (Matthew 18:18). Some, not all, may forgive OR RETAIN sins (John 20:23)." seems to contradict the Scriptures:
Eph 4:13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ,
Eph 4:14 so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes.
Eph 4:15 Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ,
Eph 4:16 from whom the whole body, joined and held together by every joint with which it is equipped, when each part is working properly, makes the body grow so that it builds itself up in love.
Tit 3:4 But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared,
Tit 3:5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,
Tit 3:6 whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
Tit 3:7 so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
Tit 3:8 The saying is trustworthy, and I want you to insist on these things, so that those who have believed in God may be careful to devote themselves to good works. These things are excellent and profitable for people.
Tit 3:9 But avoid foolish controversies, genealogies, dissensions, and quarrels about the law, for they are unprofitable and worthless.
Now, I would say your reasoning there is faulty simply because it undercuts and devalues what is written in the Scriptures!
What I am asserting here is not to diminish in any way an orderly functioning body in every place the Gospel community is found in the world, devils filled! There are indeed functioning ministerial works in the Church, functioning and bringing order to the community.
I would also say what distinguishes the True Church from the RCC's religious orders can best be distinguished by these Words of the Apostle Paul from the Book of Acts when He shows the minute participation of God and the Word of His Grace at work in the soul of His people, even now as I type these words:
Act 20:32 And now I commend you to God and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up and to give you the inheritance among all those who are sanctified.
It is even now, today, the work of God and the Word of His Grace, by the same Spirit of Faith and Power, that saves a person, turning them from darkness to Light, from the power of Satan to God so that they will receive the forgiveness of sins and an inheritance, that place among those who are sanctified by faith in Christ's presence.
This is the True Church growing and functioning building itself up in love!
Natamllc,
You write: "Saying, "...nor are all Christians imbued with equal spiritual power. For example, some, not all, may bind and loose in heaven and on earth (Matthew 18:18). Some, not all, may forgive OR RETAIN sins (John 20:23)." seems to contradict the Scriptures"
Once again, the Scriptures you cite have nothing to do with the quotation you pull, in which I gave two specific Scriptural references of powers granted to the apostles that you (presumably) do not possess Can you agree that the apostles had a special spiritual authority that you do not have? Do you believe you can bind and loose in heaven and on earth? Do you believe you have the power either to forgive OR RETAIN the sins of others?
Unless you think you have that special spiritual power, the real disagreement between us is that you believe, in my opinion contrary to Scripture, that that authority ended with the explicit apostles.
Anyway, once again, you have not responded to the real issue, and I look forward to turretinfan's response.
Ryan
Ryan, you asked me if I could agree with you that those apostles had a special spiritual authority that I do not have. Yes, they did and they were living in a different time and circumstance than the one I am living in now. My special spiritual authority is unique in today's world. I have the completed Texts of Scripture to operate with while those guys were writing it as they went along. The civil world is operating differently now than she was then. Her god is still Satan, nevertheless. He is operating under different terms and conditions now than he was during those 1st century days those Apostles operated under with the special spiritual authority given to them to operate with in the world, then. Their work was then, my work is now. For as long as I have breath as a man of God serving the Lord in the very same Eternal Calling and Glory they had been called into, by God's True Grace, I enjoy having been and am still being continually regenerated by the same Spirit of Faith and washed in the same blood of Christ as those Apostles you are referring too implied in the question, will be wrestling with the very same principalities and powers of spiritual wickedness as they were, too.
You write in your response from which I pulled the quote you are addressing asking that question this also:
"...While the OT kingdom is called the exact same as the NT kingdom--a kingdom of priests--it is appropriate to use "priests" in a more specific sense in such situations."
With that, "...a more specific sense in such situations"., I would ask you this about this verse and tell me if you can what specifics you believe King David was operating with in foreshadowing the Royal Priesthood to do that that clearly would be considered contrary to the order of the Levitical Priesthood established by God through Moses?
2Sa 8:15 So David reigned over all Israel. And David administered justice and equity to all his people.
2Sa 8:16 Joab the son of Zeruiah was over the army, and Jehoshaphat the son of Ahilud was recorder,
2Sa 8:17 and Zadok the son of Ahitub and Ahimelech the son of Abiathar were priests, and Seraiah was secretary,
2Sa 8:18 and Benaiah the son of Jehoiada was over the Cherethites and the Pelethites, and David's sons were priests.
Was King David operating with the Law of Righteousness in mind, or, was he, as Abraham and all men of God operated with, operating with the same Spirit of Faith when serving the Lord in his day appointing his sons as priests?
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