Monday, November 12, 2007

Response to Manuel Cullwell: Children born Innocent?

Manuel Cullwell wrote:
... babies are born innocent and are not depraved therefor born sheep, it
is then after they lose innocence by sin that they become goats or lost sheep
...

I answer:

In Adam all died, babies included. They are conceived in sin, and come forth out of the womb, speaking lies. No one is innocent, no one is righteous, save one: Christ Jesus.

The sheep are those depraved sinners on whom God has mercy. They were lost sheep before he called them and drew them to himself.

As the popular song goes, I once was lost but now am found, was blind but now I see.

-Turretinfan

P.S. Of course, the metaphor of "sheep" can be used other ways, such as to contrast with goats, or to represent a relationship other than a saving relationship (such as a king being the shepherd and the citizens of his nation, the sheep).

10 comments:

orthodox said...

T: In Adam, all died, babies included. They are conceived in sin, and come forth out of the womb, speaking lies.

O: I've never heard of a baby coming out of the womb speaking anything, let alone lies.

If you think a new-born baby is not innocent, perhaps you can enlighten us as to what law they have transgressed.

Turretinfan said...

O: I've never heard of a baby coming out of the womb speaking anything, let alone lies.

Psalm 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

O: If you think a new-born baby is not innocent, perhaps you can enlighten us as to what law they have transgressed.

See above. Additionally, children don't have to personally transgress the law to have guilt. Recall Original Sin.

-Turretinfan

Turretinfan said...

MC wrote: "you can submit psalm 58:3 all day long butinfants still do not speak nor lie"

I answer:

No comment needed.

-Turretinfan

Turretinfan said...

Manuel Cullwell wrote:
Infants (Babies) do not have the capacity to speak or reason nor to sin or lie yes because of Adams sin all die and death has passed upon all amnkind But you will be hard pressed to find that adams sin has passed on mankind the result of his sin has passed on all mankind .

I answer:

This is basically the same as Orthodox's comment above. See my response to him.

MC: "God made man upright but he sought out sin or devices(Eccl. 7:29)"

I answer:

Ecc 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

Adam was created innocent, but men have gone far far astray.

MC: "And Luke states this(18:15-16) were Jesus was brought infants where the disciples forbade him and he stated that you must receive the kingdom as an infant(Pure and innocent not depraved) an infant does not have much of a capacity for faith so it is not the faith of a child it is the purity or innocence God infers or gives through his shed blood by faith through his name.

I Answer:
a) your parenthetical is your invention;
b) no one can come innocent, for it is only the guilty that need to come;
c) the blood of Christ forgives sins.

I had written: The sheep are those depraved sinners on whom God has mercy.

MC wrote: "No , they are lost sheep or Goats and God had mercy by sending his only begotten son (God's mercy) and by the preaching of the Gospel we either accept or reject the message thereby becoming sheep."

I answer: There we go, back to the goats becoming sheep, by exercising their wills.

MC: "The reason for the re-in the words re-generate, or bringing life back to where it once was unless you believe we once existed in a prior life as do the Mormons, babies are innocent and are in no need of regeneration untill they sin,Their physical bodies may die but they Go to God when they Die.. Jesus was innocent and pure he died."

I answer: Fallacy of etymology.

We first are given physical life, then spiritual life.

-Turretinfan

GeneMBridges said...

Infants (Babies) do not have the capacity to speak or reason nor to sin or lie

This is an assertion in search of a supporting argument at all, much less a supporting argument from Scripture.

The soul is the issue, not the external capacities of a person. The soul of man is corrupt and sinful to the core according to Scripture. Does MC think that the soul's of babies are actually infants? Tell us, when a 90 year old man dies, does he remain a 90 year old, or does he age down? If the latter, then why wouldn't an infant "age up?" If they can age up, what does this say about the capacity of the soul?

If babies are born "innocent" then why do they do evil as soon as they possibly can? We'll watch you ponder that from the standpoint of libertarianism, and we can watch Orthodox do that too, since the Orthodox qualify as a species of libertarians too.

(18:15-16) were Jesus was brought infants where the disciples forbade him and he stated that you must receive the kingdom as an infant

The contrast here is not between innocence and sinfulness but between childlike faith and the "faith" of an "adult" like the Jewish leaders. They constantly put up roadblocks and concocted arguments to deny the Scriptures, to deny Truth. The point of this illustration is that we are to simply take God at His Word not "become innocent." If MC is right, then only the sinless can actually come to Christ at all. Is it MC's belief that a man must become sinless and innocent of his own free will in order to come to Christ. MC is articulating a version of justification by merit.

Turretinfan said...

Orthodox wrote: "T: Psalm 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

O: In the context, David speaks of some other group of people that he calls the "wicked". It's not a theological statement about mankind in general, but just a statement that these people went astray from the early ages.
"

I answer:

All you have to do is turn to Psalm 51 to see that David does not exclude himself from the category of those sinful from the start.

We don't (and you shouldn't) believe that some people are born with a good nature, and some with an evil nature.

Adam's sin corrupted human nature, causing spiritual death, so that children are conceived spiritually dead, and are ordinarily born spiritually stillborn.

They need grace in order to do anything good, which you ought to recognize. They need grace because they are naturally incapable of doing good.

-Turretinfan

Anonymous said...

"The White House said" doesn't mean that the white bldg on Penn. Ave. has vocal chords.

Yet the literal meaning of the words in the Psalm (understood as words are understood in language)is that of metonymy: even from their very start, children have sin.
--Godith

Turretinfan said...

Manuel Cullwell's reponse to Gene (sanitized, with editorial comments in bold in brackets and brackets and/or elipsis to show omitted matter):

Infants (Babies) do not have the capacity to speak or reason nor to sin or lie

Gene:
This is an assertion in search of a supporting argument at all, much less a supporting argument from Scripture.

MC:
You have to maintain that ... argument so that you can continue to use the psalm 58:3 passage as you do! [nonanswer harangue] Let's see you have a conversation with my Grandson who was born in April that would be a pretty good trick and i have never sin him sin ever against God even when he cries in response to his needs. [and if is MC has not seen it, ergo it did not happen ... do children really only cry when they have needs - certainly it would be difficult to prove that assertion, and mnay mothers quickly discover that some cries can be safely ignored, while other cries are more serious] ... all of your doctrines are based on inferrence [and hence, according to MC, unscriptural which is an absurd claim: logical inference, i.e. deduction, is a perfectly appropriate way of obtaining a doctrine from Scripture].


Gene:
The soul is the issue, not the external capacities of a person.

MC:You will have to prove first the soul of an infant which have not done by the way is stained with inherited sin. [That's already been done.] you make a good philosphical arguemnt but not scriptual one! [That's just a harangue.]

Gene:
The soul of man is corrupt and sinful to the core according to Scripture.

MC: Yes Gene, because of sin but nothing staes from scripture of inherited sin. [Assuming one ignores, for example, the ten commandments ... and the other Scriptures already presented in the opening post and previous comments ...]

Gene:
Does MC think that the soul's of babies are actually infants?

MC:It matters not wether he agaes up or down age is a result of time time is result of this world sin is matter of sinning not inheriting! [I think MC may be confused by the "age of the soul" argument - in any event MC cleary has a problem with "upon the children ... to them that hate me"] Please prove that and let's stop with the philosophy. [Anti-intellectualism is usually a sign of a failed argument]

Gene:
Tell us, when a 90 year old man dies, does he remain a 90 year old, or does he age down?

MC:
that does not concern me in the least and I gave the reasons why!Only that I know for sure we will be spirtual creatures like the angels. [Denial of the bodily resurrection, eh?]

Gene:
If the latter, then why wouldn't an infant "age up?" If they can age up, what does this say about the capacity of the soul?

MC:Your argument is not an arguemnt at all, but your attempt to get me to think as do you, sorry, calvins inherited sin is not in scripture. [Note that MC just refuses to consider the argument, and instead tries to redirect back to his original assertion. The problem is that MC has not interacted with the relevant Scripture.]

Gene
If babies are born "innocent" then why do they do evil as soon as they possibly can?

MC:What kind of evil would that be? [Is that disagreement with the premise that they do evil as soon as they can?] Let's focus on what you said instead of what you did'nt say and what I know you know from your statement. [Let's focus on what you didn't say??] You just admitted babies have no capacity to do good or evil untill the mature and are able to gain a limited abitlity to reason as they grow. [Actually, he didn't "admit" that at all. He simply said: "as soon as they can." He may think that, but he certainly did not say that. If you have this much trouble reading Gene ...] Thank you for that!

Gene:
We'll watch you ponder that from the standpoint of libertarianism, and we can watch Orthodox do that too, since the Orthodox qualify as a species of libertarians too.

MC:
What are you trying to say Gene? I have pondered absolutely nothing [Sadly this claim is probably true] by your line of Calvinistic questioning [I don't see how a question can be "Calvinistic" - seems like this is an attempt to misuse labelling] designed to get me to believe God is the cause of all the evil in the world [clearly that is not what Gene was trying to argue, or even remotely connected with Gene's argument], [MC's argument against God being "the cause of all the evil in the world" omitted as off-topic]


Gene:
(18:15-16) were Jesus was brought infants where the disciples forbade him and he stated that you must receive the kingdom as an infant
Gene here then argues about Child like faith but the passge submitted speaks of infants who have no reasoning capacity for faith [the passage does not say they lacked capacity for faith, only MC says so] he is speaking of innocence [that can't be right for the reasons explained previously]. so I did submit his redundant arguemnts that I have already dealt with in another post... [I have no idea what MC means by this]

[Submitted in the interest of providing Gene an opportunity to respond, if he'd like]

wwasbad said...

I have always accepted that babies were born in sin and shaped in iniquity. The parents have a vital role to play in the infant’s life. A bad tree cannot bring forth good fruit, and the sins of the parents shall be passed down to the children.
We would all like to look on a new born baby as a innocent being, but as God fearing Christian we know better, we stand for truth and not feelings and emotions, that is left to the worldly people who has not found Christ, or the teaching of the Bible as the true way to Life and Living. Instead they sway in the wind like blades of grass, today they believe one thing and tomorrow they believe another.

Turretinfan said...

An anonymous comment was made here, but has been answered in (a new post).

-TurretinFan