Saturday, July 19, 2008

Real Goodwin Compared to Real Turretin

Over at a Thomas Goodwin blog (hosted by someone who enjoys the writings of the historical Thomas Goodwin - and a blog that I enjoy reading and could generally recommend) there is a new post that compares Goodwin and Turretin on the issue of what would have happened to Adam had he continued in righteousness. It is an interesting hypothetical question. Being such an open fan of Turretin, I would not want to suggest to anyone that they should take my word that Turretin makes the stronger case.

On the other hand, the main point that Goodwin makes (as I understand it), namely that no promise of confirmation in righteousness after a time of righteous obedience is promised in Scripture, makes some intuitive sense and provides the reader who is interested in the topic with a reason to peruse in more detail the arguments presented by each side.

I would respectfully submit that in limiting one's research of Turretin on the issue to Topic 8, Question 6 (as it appears the TG blog has), one may miss some of the other things Turretin said on the issue, particularly in the third topic of the first part of Turretin's Institutes (around question 13).

Here's a link to the Thomas Goodwin blog's article (link).

-TurretinFan

3 comments:

natamllc said...

Well TF, that was a good and thought full read! Thanks!!

I, however, "not being physically alive" during the lifetimes of Goodwin and Turretin, note, that I don't know them and they certainly did not know of me so as to know me or know of my thinking and my writings for obvious reasoning. I have read a little of each but nothing scholarly or exhaustively for any purpose. I cannot say I know them just that I know some things they have written and base my thinking on that and on dialog herein with you about them.

They, however, "pure speculation on my part", had in hand the "entire" Holy Writ "as we have" and I suppose had more time to think and pray and ponder it than we have had, with God. Although, the Good Merits of Jesus have provided me a lot of time these many years now with study time, to study to show myself approved, pouring over the Scriptures and other writings, many many hours of study.

I would say, humbly as I can, both are off a bit.

Here is why.

Consider this meditation:

God created five days first, then after creating living creatures He, on the other half of the sixth day created Adam and then Eve. On the seventh day, He rested.

Two things then I want to note to build my position given above about both their positions posited, Goodwin's and Turretin's:

one:

Gen 1:1 In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.
Gen 1:2 The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.


and then, after creating "living" creatures the first half of the sixth day, God did this:

Gen 1:26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."
Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.
Gen 1:28 And God blessed them. And God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over every living thing that moves on the earth."


Note that the last thing that God created was Adam and then Eve. After that God was directing these two to their particular good works as "His" workmanship.

What was already in the preceeding days?

Well, note verse two, the earth was formless and void and, note here this:::>"darkness" was over the surface of the deep and the "Spirit" of God was over the surface of the waters.

So, of those three, which were created as a part of verse one?

I will say only the created heavens and earth. The heaven both Goodwin and Turretin speak of in their writings is presumably the "Eternal Heavens" of God?

I will say that "darkness" is of some earlier creation and order of things and assert that it refers to the fallen dark ones of evil, hatred and destruction. And the deep overwhich darkness is described there in verse two to be over is a part of this creation, the present heavens and earth and it's temporal purpose is to bring remedial judgment upon the "cause" of the darkness.

I will say that the "Spirit of God", is none other than the Holy Ghost, one of the Three "Eternals" of the Holy Trinity.

Ok so far? Three, one: heavens and earth, two: darkness, from a previous order and three: the Holy Ghost, one of Three Eternals, the Everlasting God, Our God.

It then can be implied and I so do, that there are "Elect Angels" of that previous order from where "darkness" comes from in play in this present heavens and earth. During this creation, according to the Holy Writ, we see Elect Angels at play therein, herein.

Now, to the point, but first, :), another verse from the book of Ephesians to lay the foundation for it:::>

Eph 3:8 To me, though I am the very least of all the saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ,
Eph 3:9 and to bring to light for everyone what is the plan of the mystery hidden for ages in God who created all things,
Eph 3:10 so that through the church the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly places.
Eph 3:11 This was according to the eternal purpose that he has realized in Christ Jesus our Lord,
Eph 3:12 in whom we have boldness and access with confidence through our faith in him.


The purpose of creation and the creation of Adam was not to have two "co-equal" experiences, an earth and a heavenly human's experience and by so experiencing earth and heaven as Adam he and his offspring would live an "eternal" "life" with God.

No, I would say that because of the "eternal purpose" Paul refers to there in Ephesians 3 and this from Peter's understanding written here Adam's purpose was to experience just what Scripture records so that the intent of the Eternal Purpose of the Everlasting God can be accomplished upon these that are being held directly responsible for the "darkness":

1Pe 1:17 And if you call on him as Father who judges impartially according to each one's deeds, conduct yourselves with fear throughout the time of your exile,
1Pe 1:18 knowing that you were ransomed from the futile ways inherited from your forefathers, not with perishable things such as silver or gold,
1Pe 1:19 but with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or spot.
1Pe 1:20 He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for the sake of you
1Pe 1:21 who through him are believers in God, who raised him from the dead and gave him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.


Adam did what he was created to do, fail.

Why?

So that God could "set" in Eternity this that we now speak of, eternal damnation, the place prepared for Satan and his angels and all those that are not the Elect of God after the order of Salvation:::>

Mat 25:34 Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.



Mat 25:41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Turretinfan said...

Michael,

Yes, they were speaking about the heaven in which we will spend eternity.

-TurretinFan

natamllc said...

TF, yes and I suppose we too will be speaking with them shortly! :), ....seeing Salvation is nearer to us today than when we first believed!

To use the moment to digress, ....I have been listening to Dr. White's four part series preached apparently recently in Houston Texas. It is posted youtube linked on Reformation Theology by John Sampson over there. It is funny and pure Dr. White having fun at semi theological expense! I recommend it!

Now to another digression.

It's Revelation 1 and something that has come clearer today to me when talking with my son Hosea.

Revelation 1:

Rev 1:7 Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen.

Yes and amen, even so then! The Elect are rejoicing in this appearing so why should all tribes of the earth wail, mourn, tremble???

Because at this return they will realize their goodness is not what He is coming back for!

I do pray with King David now:

1Ch 16:31 Let the heavens be glad, and let the earth rejoice, and let them say among the nations, "The LORD reigns!"