Does the NT Teach the Deity of Christ, May, 1999 vs. Hamza Abdul Malik, Syosset, NY
You can obtain a copy of this debate:This isn't the only debate that Dr. White has done with Muslims. Here are some others:
- Is the New Testament We Possess Today Inspired? May, 2006, vs. Shabir Ally, Biola University
- Did Jesus Offer Himself on the Cross as a Willing Sacrifice for the Sins of God's People? October, 2007, vs. Shabir Ally, Seattle, WA
- Can We Trust What the New Testament Says about Jesus and the Gospel? March 21, 2008, vs. Nadir Ahmed, Norfolk, VA
- Does the Bible Teach Jesus is God? April 12, 2008, vs. Jalal Abualrub, Fullerton, CA
- Was Jesus Crucified or Substituted? September 20, 2008, vs. Osama Abdullah, Bellflower, CA
- Can We Trust the New Testament? September 20, 2008, vs. Osama Abdullah, Bellflower, CA
- Did Jesus Claim to Be God? September 21, 2008, vs. Farhan Qureshi, Bellflower, CA
- Does Belief in the Trinity Necessitate Shirk? November 11, 2008, vs. Adnan Rashid, London, England
- Does Belief in the Trinity Necessitate Polytheism? November 13, 2008, vs. Abdullah al-Andalusi, Radio
- Jesus: Divine Son of God or Prophet of Allah? November 13, 2008, vs. Sami Zaatari, London, England
- Is Jesus Prophesied in the OT? November 17, 2008, vs. Shabir Ally, London, England
- Is Muhammad Prophesied in the Bible? November 17, 2008, vs. Shabir Ally, London England
- The Bible vs. the Qur'an: a Comparison November 20, 2008, vs. Dr. Zulfiqar Ali Shah, Duke University - Durham, NC
- The Bible & the Qur'an June 25, 2009, vs. Imam Shamsi Ali, Queens, NY
- The Bible & the Qur'an: Which is the Light to the World August 17, 2009, vs. Abdullah Kunde, Sydney, Australia
- Jesus in the Bible and the Qur'an November 7, 2009, vs. Imam Syed Z. Sayeed, Queens, NY
-TurretinFan
15 comments:
I have to say, with or without hair, he does a mean debate! :)
What? None in Nebraska?
Thanks for posting this TurretinFan.
I love how Dr. White is respectful as he decimates the arguments against the doctrines of Scripture, and specifically the doctrine of the deity of Christ as in this debate.
All Christians should be grateful to God that He has given us a Dr. James White who prepares for and brilliantly defends the Christian Faith in this kind of setting.
TF
if you know?
Is Hamza Abdul Malik from Nigeria?
Is Hamza of a "royal" family?
His name implies as much, the second question, at least.
He is very knowledgeable and intelligent. He "soul" is very developed which comes across that he is "spiritually" inclined?
If you know, thanks?
Rhology
I found this quite humorous when I saw it for the first time.
http://www.zazzle.com/i_debated_ergun_caner_in_ne_tshirt-235146649111799789
I felt bad for laughing as hard as I did so you may want to consider restraining yourself a little bit. ;)
With the name of God, Peace be unto you .
Hmmm ... The plot does thicken. First with John Ankerberg as he has lucrative book deals, and co authored books on Islam with Ergun Caner.
Remember how Ergun Caner has "debated" Abdul Saleeb (servant of the cross) ?
TF: I wonder what you and others think about this book here: http://www.biblio.com/Answering_Islam-by-Norman_L_Geisler_-_10991107.html
Notice that Norman Geisler has co authored a book with someone under a pseudonym named 'Abdul Saleeb'.
Could it be that Ergun Caner is this Abdul Saleeb? Could it be that Ergun Caner has sent an S.O.S to Norman Geisler and said basically, "look buddy if I go down so does John and so do you". "You people put me up to this".
Of course this is just a THEORY...and since TF you are on speaking terms with James White you might want to see what his thoughts are on the matter.
Wow, that would mean that the majority of Christian publications or authors about Islam have been deceptive to their Christian audience for the better part of the last 30 years!
This is definitely not looking good.
TVG19,
I've read the Geisler/Saleeb book and the Caner book. The G/S book's writing style is MUCH different and much more erudite than the Caner book. I'd doubt that theory.
Sincerely,
Someone Who's Ticked Off at Ergun Caner
(Sorry, meant TGV19.)
With the name of God, Peace be unto you.
Rhology that is fair enough, yet this whole Ergun Caner issue has opened a can of worms has it not?
I wrote an entry here: http://thegrandverbalizer19.blogspot.com/2010/05/norman-geisler-ergun-caner-rc-sproul.html
The thing that is interesting is that Caner has said he debated an AbdulSaleeb. Is it not curious to people that this name is in circulation or name that crossed his mind or was on the tip of his tongue?
Considering that Norman Geisler did author books with this AbdulSaleeb and has R.C Sproul.
I also looked into the person (anonymous) and there was supposed to have been a debate between this AbdulSaleeb and Jeremy McAuliffe. The thing that is troubling is I immediately got on the horn to contact people in ISNA,ICNA,MSA and various circles I have been with in the United States.
No one in the United States knows anything about this Jeremy McAuliffe from the Muslim community.
Is the AbdulSaleeb/Jeremy McAuliffe written exchange a fictious debate?
Are both McAuliffe and AbdulSaleeb fictious charachters?
Yes Rhology I can respect that you read both books. One with Geisler/AbdulSaleeb the other Ankerberg/Caner; however
is AbdulSaleeb genuine and real?
remember Ankerberg has thrown his lot in with the Caners to cover up his lucrative books sales.
Is Norman Geisler worried that some people may now start probing and prodding at the 'AbdulSaleeb' charachter.
I just wish you people as Christians could get on the horn and let me know if this person is indeed real.
If not this whole mess of lying to the masses goes much deeper and beyond Caner.
This could in theory see blow back for Norman Geisler, and even R.C Sproul.
Seems like AbdulSaleeb has done allot of 'sleeping around' in the anti-islamic polemic scene...
"Abdul Saleeb" is simply the Arabic phrase for "Servant of the Cross." It is a pseudonym that could be applied to any Christian. We would want to see an explicit statement before we would link the "Abdul Saleeb" who coordinated with R.C. Sproul and the "Abdul Saleeb" who coordinated with Norm Geisler or the "Abdul Saleeb" that was in the debate you had identified.
- TurretinFan
With the name of God, Peace be unto you.
TF as a person who speaks Arabic I know full well what AbdulSaleeb means.
However, which one of us is operating under an assumption? I am assuming without 100% evidence that this AbdulSaleeb who coordinated with R.C Sproul, Norman Geisler or who 'debated' Ergun Caner is the same or a code word for something very diabolical.
However, based upon your response it looks as IF you are willing to assume that they are three seperate persons based upon what evidence?
Neither of us have a presuppositional or an evidentalist position on this.
However, I am trying to get to the bottom of this.
Prayers were answered and I did get one gentleman at Debbie Kaufman's blog to give me an audio link.
http://www.ligonier.org/rym/broadcasts/audio/authenticity-scripture/
I leared some very interesting things in this audio cast. I have learned that this "AbdulSaleeb" is called "Doctor" so must atleast hold a Th.D or a Ph.D
Now when you go to AbdulSaleeb's testimony here some other things do not add up.
http://www.answering-islam.org/Testimonies/abdul.html
"I ended up enrolling in an International Christian School."
Hmmm. His mother was from a devout Sufi Tariqah (un named) He comes from the middle east (un named country).
Traveled to Europe (no specific dates given) and decided out of over 30 plus nations in Europe and a plethora of schools to choose from "I'll just enroll in this here Christian school".
Well, that's quite convient indeed.
Now this is coming from a person who felt Mohammed Khan nit picked a bit about Ergun Caner. The term muazeeen and masjeeed are perfectly acceptable pronunciations in the Arabic language.
However, this 'AbdulSaleeb' pronounced Qur'an and Tahreef in a very Hispanic accent. To me it sounds as if he has a Spanish or Hispanic background speaking English.
Now I think we would do good to investigate this other wise what will happen TF is that this will look like a Calvinist vs Arminian fiasco.
For example some people may rightfully enquire why is it that matters pertaining to Ergun Caner are pursued with vigour; yet when another matter comes to our attention in which a respected Calvinist theologian may be involved we tend to take a hands off approach.
I think we need to try and have consistent standards.
TGV19:
What do you think needs to be investigated? Is there some reason to think that one or more of these Abdul Saleebs is not who they claim to be?
-TurretinFan
With the name of God, peace be unto you.
TF: I guess if I'm looking at this and putting the pieces together a few things do get my attention.
Ergun Caner claims to have debated an 'AbdulSaleeb'. The point here is not if this was formal or informal but that this name was chosen out of all possible names or combiation of names.
It is odd that a Muslim would have such a name.
So than I leave this be and think nothing more of it.
Than the Mohammed Khan has his videos pulled by John Ankerberg and Liberty. One wonders why. Than a person can see the connection in the book deals between Ankerberg and Emir Caner. After all I don't know about anyone else. ad hominem does have a place in apologetics.
If I am given an impression that a guy is an expert on Islam or has a pretty good grasp of the theological teachings of Islam and than find out this man to be a fraud I would feel cheated.
Infact I might sign a petition and ask for my money back.
One this Ergun Caner situation has done is to show that there are allot of people who go under the name of Christian are doing allot of very shady things indeed.
Than I read the Norman Geisler response and felt a little taken a back. I started to think back to Norman Geisler and his contributions towards anti-islamic apologetic.
One name came to mind 'AbdulSaleeb'
Geisler is a clever man. I do not know why he would put his neck out on the line for Caner.
Like I said I try to go beyond the immediate emotional appeal to 'oh he just hates Calvinist'.
I think it does go beyond that. I think that if Christians who constantly like to accuse us Muslims of practicing taqiyyah and being dishonest need to apply consistent standards to the body of Christ as well.
So now we have an 'AbdulSaleeb' doing books with Norman Geisler and R.C Sproul.
I am simply one step ahead of the rest of you TF:
We can already agree that these people at Liberty are in the midst of a cover up. There is allot at stake.
So why I would do is come up with a plan to answer all the questions that we have for Ergun Caner.
One part of my plan (if I was dishonest but wanted to save my @$$) would be to bring in this 'AbdulSaleeb' and claim that right before he saw the light he had a debate with Caner.
Than again maybe Caner did mis speak concerning AbdulSaleeb. If he is running with the R.C Sproul crowd maybe Caner got into an Arminian/Calvinist 'debate' with him.
The name AbdulSaleeb being Arabic and sounding Islamic too the ears of many could easily be lumped in with 'debating' Muslims while speaking.
TF you said
"Is there some reason to think that one or more of these Abdul Saleebs is not who they claim to be?"
We live in a small world TF and I have seen many coincidental things in my life. Almost too good to be true.
It may not prick your conscious at all TF but a person like me begins to wonder just how many "AbdulSaleebs" are there involved in Christian apologetics co authoring books with Arminian and Calvinist authors and having fake debates with Ergun Caner
and now a made up Muslim Jeremy McAuliffe...
I don't have any doubt that Ergun Caner was not speaking truthfully in saying that he debated "Abdul Saleeb."
I don't see any evidence, however, that either Norman Geisler's "Abdul Saleeb" or R.C. Sproul's "Abdul Saleeb" is not who he says he is.
If there were evidence of that, of course I'd be willing to consider it. Right now, however, it just looks like an interesting idea for exploration by someone with more time on their hands than I have.
-TurretinFan
thegrandverbalizer19
I can sympathize with your concern.
In defense of Dr. Caner, though, and yes I will defend him now, as for the issues you lay out, all I say is, "I too have the same problem remembering names".
What do I mean?
Let me give you my personal embarassment.
I have been to Washington D.C. many many times. In fact one time I went there I got stuck for several days unintended because of a snow blizzard that socked me in! Thank God for my friends who thought the weatherman was right and they prepared with a full pantry and a warm house inside for me to wait it out!
Anyway, I was invited to the Washington D.C. vatican and at the time Cardinal McCarrick wasn't Archbishop. He hosted some event. I cannot recall what it was. I can recall I have several times misspoke or wrote his name as Cardinal McCormick. When I realized my mistake I quickly corrected myself or when someone corrected me I would usually hit my head for being such a poor rememberer of names.
I am weak when it comes to remembering names. It reflects poorly on me when that happens both publically and privately.
Cardinal MrCarrick went on to be appointed Archbishop sometime later, after my visit with him.
I can tell you my visit was in the evening. I can describe the outside and inside of this majestic building. I can tell who I was with when we went there. I cannot for the life of me remember just how we got there, though? It could have been by private car, taxi or a rented car. But the mind does funny things when you are called upon to remember some details and stuff of a past event.
In this case, Dr. Caner could simply have been having a senior moment trying to remember that person's name who is naming Abdul Saleeb?
That isn't the issue. What is the issue is what has come out in such clear ways and it is my understanding that when discrepancies or embellishments have been brought to his attention, instead of correcting the record, he dodged, ignored or down right attacked the messengers for seeking a clarification of the discrepancy or embellishment. What seems even more odd is what you have come to see as a possible cover up of sorts by Liberty University or Dr. Geisler. What do they want to cover up? Why? Only time and the truth well tell us these things?
Anyway, I truly want him exonerated. Don't you?
What a wonderful thing it would be for us all to have to eat some humble pie? Well, not me, of course, cause I am never wrong and I never misstate the facts!
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