Saturday, May 22, 2010

Is Mary Greater than John the Baptist?

One difference I've noticed between Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholics is the latter's greater emphasis on Mary and the former's greater emphasis on John the Baptist. Sometimes it's subtle, other times not so much. For example, Roman Catholicism does give Mary a greater amount of worship (i.e. religious reverence and devotion through religious ritual etc.)[FN1] than other saints.

Example:
The Church's veneration for the Madonna—a veneration that surpasses the cult of every other saint and takes the name of "hyperdulia"—invests the whole liturgical year.
(John Paul II, To the Young People, 10 January 1979, section 2)

And again:
Besides, the Blessed Virgin possessed, after Christ, not only the highest degree of excellence and perfection, but also a share in that influence by which He, her Son and our Redeemer, is rightly said to reign over the minds and wills of men. For if through His Humanity the divine Word performs miracles and gives graces, if He uses His Sacraments and Saints as instruments for the salvation of men, why should He not make use of the role and work of His most holy Mother in imparting to us the fruits of redemption? "With a heart that is truly a mother's," to quote again Our Predecessor of immortal memory, Pius IX, "does she approach the problem of our salvation, and is solicitous for the whole human race; made Queen of heaven and earth by the Lord, exalted above all choirs of angels and saints, and standing at the right hand of her only Son, Jesus Christ our Lord, she intercedes powerfully for us with a mother's prayers, obtains what she seeks, and cannot be refused." On this point another of Our Predecessors of happy memory, Leo XIII, has said that an "almost immeasurable" power has been given Mary in the distribution of graces; St. Pius X adds that she fills this office "as by the right of a mother."
(Pius XII, Ad Caeli Reginam (To the Queen of Heaven), 11 October 1954, Section 42)

Here's a problem for Roman Catholics that is less of a problem for Eastern Orthodox. Isn't John the Baptist greater than Mary? Or is Mary greater than John the Baptist?

Jesus said:

Matthew 11:11
Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
Luke 7:28
For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.
On the other hand, Jesus also said:

Matthew 12:46-50
While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him. Then one said unto him, "Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee."

But he answered and said unto him that told him, "Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?" And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, "Behold my mother and my brethren! For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother."
Mark 3:31-35
There came then his brethren and his mother, and, standing without, sent unto him, calling him. And the multitude sat about him, and they said unto him, "Behold, thy mother and thy brethren without seek for thee."

And he answered them, saying, "Who is my mother, or my brethren?" And he looked round about on them which sat about him, and said, "Behold my mother and my brethren! For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother."
Luke 8:19-21
Then came to him his mother and his brethren, and could not come at him for the press. And it was told him by certain which said, "Thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to see thee."

And he answered and said unto them, "My mother and my brethren are these which hear the word of God, and do it."
There is a sort of double-whammy effect that these passages have. First, they demonstrate a prominence for John the Baptist. While we do not offer worship/cult to John the Baptist, we do recognize his preeminence among the prophets, agreeing with Jesus. Second, they demonstrate an absence of prominence of Jesus' mother and siblings. Jesus de-emphasized his blood relations through Mary in favor of the spiritual relation that believers have with Him through faith.

Recall that Jesus' own brethren did not believe on him at first:

John 7:1-10
After these things Jesus walked in Galilee: for he would not walk in Jewry, because the Jews sought to kill him. Now the Jews' feast of tabernacles was at hand. His brethren therefore said unto him, "Depart hence, and go into Judaea, that thy disciples also may see the works that thou doest. For there is no man that doeth any thing in secret, and he himself seeketh to be known openly. If thou do these things, shew thyself to the world."

For neither did his brethren believe in him.

Then Jesus said unto them, "My time is not yet come: but your time is alway ready. The world cannot hate you; but me it hateth, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil. Go ye up unto this feast: I go not up yet unto this feast; for my time is not yet full come."

When he had said these words unto them, he abode still in Galilee. But when his brethren were gone up, then went he also up unto the feast, not openly, but as it were in secret.
Notice that in the passages above, Jesus' mother and brethren are not specifically identified as unbelievers, but in this passage it is made explicit that Jesus' brethren did not believe in him. Furthermore, immediately before his death on the cross, Jesus substituted John for himself in his familial relation with Mary:

John 19:25-27
Now there stood by the cross of Jesus his mother, and his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalene. When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, "Woman, behold thy son!" Then saith he to the disciple, "Behold thy mother!" And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home.

After the crucifixion, Mary receives only a cursory mention:

Acts 1:14 These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren.

And Mary's role is further downplayed in Hebrews, where Jesus is described by comparison to Melchizedek as:

Hebrews 7:3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.

Thus, just as Jesus is recognized as being without father as to his humanity, Scripture teaches us that Jesus is without mother as to his divinity. This is not just my 21st century opinion, but is what was taught by Ambrose, Augustine, John Cassian, Gregory Nazianzen, and Theodoret (see evidence here).

Finally, rather than making Mary the mother of us all, Scripture assigns that place to Heaven, the Jerusalem above.

Galatians 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

But there is a final Scriptural discussion that ought to nail close the case both against Mary and John the Baptist as being the greatest in the Kingdom of Heaven. It's the same thread of discussion that definitively disproves the papacy.

Matthew 18:1-4
At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, "Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?"

And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them, and said, "Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven."
Matthew 23:1-12
Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, saying, "The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: all therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers. But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments, and love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues, and greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, 'Rabbi, Rabbi.' But be not ye called 'Rabbi:' for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ. But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant. And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted."
Mark 9:33-37
And he came to Capernaum: and being in the house he asked them, "What was it that ye disputed among yourselves by the way?"

But they held their peace: for by the way they had disputed among themselves, who should be the greatest.

And he sat down, and called the twelve, and saith unto them, "If any man desire to be first, the same shall be last of all, and servant of all." And he took a child, and set him in the midst of them: and when he had taken him in his arms, he said unto them, "whosoever shall receive one of such children in my name, receiveth me: and whosoever shall receive me, receiveth not me, but him that sent me."
Luke 9:46-48
Then there arose a reasoning among them, which of them should be greatest. And Jesus, perceiving the thought of their heart, took a child, and set him by him, and said unto them, "Whosoever shall receive this child in my name receiveth me: and whosoever shall receive me receiveth him that sent me: for he that is least among you all, the same shall be great."
Luke 22:24-27
And there was also a strife among them, which of them should be accounted the greatest.

And he said unto them, "The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors. But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve. For whether is greater, he that sitteth at meat, or he that serveth? is not he that sitteth at meat? but I am among you as he that serveth."
Notice that never in these discourses does Jesus say, "Pope St. Peter of course," or "Come on guys, obviously my mom is the greatest." Notice as well that at least one of these discussions comes after the discussion "on this Rock" discussion in Matthew 16. Jesus has many opportunities to identify a greatest mere human, and he declines to name names. Instead, Jesus gives the same basic answer: he teaches that those who are greatest in the heavenly kingdom are those who are converted and believe on him. Look at the similarity between Jesus' response to "your mother and brethren are outside looking for you" and Jesus' response to "who is the greatest?" In the former case he identifies those who believe on him as being his mother and brethren, and in the latter case, he identifies those who humble themselves and whose hearts are changed so that they become like little children as the greatest.

So is Mary greater than John the Baptist? We have no Scriptural basis for asserting that she is. If she is greater than John the Baptist, it would only be because she is more humble. But compare their humility as recorded in Scripture.

While Mary does call herself the handmaid of the Lord:

Luke 1:38 & 48
And Mary said, "Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word." And the angel departed from her. ... "For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed."
She is not always respectful of Jesus, you will recall that in Mark 3, she and Jesus' brethren had come because they believed him to be losing it.

Mark 3:21 & 31
And when his friends heard of it, they went out to lay hold on him: for they said, "He is beside himself." ... There came then his brethren and his mother, and, standing without, sent unto him, calling him.
And at least twice Jesus rebukes Mary:

John 2:3-4
And when they wanted wine, the mother of Jesus saith unto him, "They have no wine." Jesus saith unto her, "Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come."
Luke 2:48-50
And when they saw him, they were amazed: and his mother said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing. And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business? And they understood not the saying which he spake unto them.
By comparison, hear the words of John the Baptist:

John 1:26-27
John answered them, saying, "I baptize with water: but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not; he it is, who coming after me is preferred before me, whose shoe's latchet I am not worthy to unloose."
John 3:25-36
Then there arose a question between some of John's disciples and the Jews about purifying. And they came unto John, and said unto him, "Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him."

John answered and said, "A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven. Ye yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but that I am sent before him. He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled. He must increase, but I must decrease. He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all. And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth; and no man receiveth his testimony. He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true. For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him. The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand. He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him."
Unlike Mary who did not understand what Jesus' meant by being about his Father's business, John seems to have understood from the earliest portion of Christ's ministry, as we will see below. We are told of one instance where John's faith wavered, but look at how Jesus' addressed it:

Matthew 11:2-6
Now when John had heard in the prison the works of Christ, he sent two of his disciples, and said unto him, "Art thou he that should come, or do we look for another?"

Jesus answered and said unto them, "Go and shew John again those things which ye do hear and see: the blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them. And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me."
Even in the one instance where John needs to be corrected by Jesus, John had erred in his humility:

Matthew 3:13-15
Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him. But John forbad him, saying, "I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?"

And Jesus answering said unto him, "Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness."

Then he suffered him.
If humility were the measure, it would seem that John the Baptist would win hands down. But, of course, Jesus' admonitions discourage us from seeking to have a "greatest" in the first place. Scripture explains:

Ephesians 4:5-6
One Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
And that one Lord is Jesus Christ:

1 Corinthians 8:6
But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
As Jesus himself said:

John 13:13
Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am.
So then the answer to the question is that the only Scriptural passages that speak to the matter would seem to place John the Baptist ahead of Mary, although the fundamental basis for the question seems to be mistaken.

- TurretinFan

[FN1: For those Roman Catholics who always complain when I mention the worship of Mary, "cult" in that quotation is reference to religious reverence (look it up), i.e. worship (see here). I hate having to disrupt the flow of the post to explain this, but there are enough American Roman Catholics who deny the Mary-worshiping charge that this is necessary.]

19 comments:

natamllc said...

As is the tradition in my household, my son and I went to breakfast this morning as we have most Saturday mornings the last 16 to 18 years. I have two sons. We have held to this tradition since they were old enough to be put in a car seat and taken out from the safety of the house to public restaurants. Every restaurant has accomodated us.

Now I have one son over in Kandahar, Afghanistan. He is 19 soon to be 20 and an active Army crew chief on a 101st Airborne black hawk helicopter. His bird is the "vip" bird. He has had the top brass on his bird from the Joint Chiefs down. He calls me almost every day. What a blessing.

This morning the conversation with my other son went to the religious practice of the veneration of the Madonna, i.e., Mary. He is 16 years old.

An interesting thing came from this discussion between my 16 year old son and me.

First, let me explain this:

We are a reformed Church and have been for over 30 years. The Lord founded us upon the leadership of a very wise man with a breadth of knowledge and experience. His comprehension of religions and the Reformed view is grand. I have learned a lot from him personally. I miss him immensely. He has gone onto that Eternal place prepared for Him.

We have our own school system. We teach our own. In the state of California, our school children score in the highest percentages in the state. Some of our students go on to university with ease and graduate with honors and degrees.

We have a freedom to teach our own our ways and traditions and put in them the diversity of beliefs.

This morning discussing this religious practice the conversation went something like this: I asked, how many girls and young ladies are in our Church family? My son counted outloud the appromixate number give or take a couple two or three he could not recall off hand.

I then asked, of these, are they all "virgins"?

He said he supposes so since we do not teach dating and if one of our own wants to marry all the men of the Church are involved in the process. They come out with a clean witness of a desire for marriage. They discuss openly and freely who it is they are interested in. When the deal is done there is a period of time when the opposites cannot be alone together nor can they hold hands or date.

I then asked him another question:

"Are all these virgins sinners"? "Oh yes, all of us are"!

"What is your belief about Mary, the Virgin who bore Jesus, was she a sinner?"

"Why yes dad, we are all sinners save the Lord"! "What's your point"?

"Son, you confirmed my point".

Then we ordered breakfast and discussed the preached Word last Sunday and the relationship between the Law and the Gospel.

Viisaus said...

High-church Anglican writer Richard Littledale pointed out that RC saint-worshippers seem to have some of their priorities confused:

http://www.archive.org/details/plainreasonsaga01littgoog

pp. 24-25

"Roman Inconsistency in the Invocation of Saints.

XIII. Even apart from the theological heresy and rebellion of the practice, as just exemplified, and the absence of any certainty of its utility, however modified and purged from these sins; there is another fact which shows the further inconsistency and uncertainty about it. If there be any truth in the doctrine at all, one thing must necessarily follow, that the fittest persons to invoke are the most eminent Saints, those of whose holiness and acceptance with God there can be no doubt whatever.

But in actual practice this is not the case at all, except as regards the Blessed Virgin and St. Joseph. For example, take the "Raccolta." There is not one indulgenced prayer to the Archangel St. Gabriel, or to any Apostle, except SS. Peter and Paul, not even to St John, the Beloved Disciple; none to St. Stephen the Protomartyr, nor to St. Mary of Bethany. But there are such prayers to purely minor and wholly insignificant persons, like St Aloysius Gonzaga, St. Stanislas Kostka, St. Michael de Santi, and St. Nicholas of Bari, who cannot, on any estimate of their merits, be ranked with the great New Testament worthies, nor even with saints like St. Athanasius or St Augustine, who are never popularly invoked at all."


It is a proof of saint-worship's semi-polytheistic nature that RC/EO masses have traditionally liked to pray especially to their own local heroes - almost every village having its own favourite object of invocation.

beowulf2k8 said...

If nobody born of a woman is greater than John the Baptist then either:

(1) John is greater than Jesus,

or

(2) Jesus was not born of a woman.

Compare Matthew 11:11 to John 6:51 and you'll see the answer.

beowulf2k8 said...

John 6:51 "I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world."

hiram said...

beowulf2k8 said:

"If nobody born of a woman is greater than John the Baptist then either:

(1) John is greater than Jesus,

or

(2) Jesus was not born of a woman"

Neither.

Jesus became the least in the kingdom, as humble as a child. He alone is the greatest in the kingdom of Heaven. We read:

"whoever humbles himself as this little child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven..."

And what does Paul say?

"Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."

-Phil. 2:5-11

Problem solved ;)

-h.

Truth Unites... and Divides said...

Hi TFan,

As someone who didn't grow up in a (Protestant) Christian home, but came to become a (Protestant) Christian in my youth, I could not or did not understand the emphasis upon Mary when I encountered Roman Catholic friends and their Catholicism. It was weird to me. The churches I attended in my formative years spoke of Christ, nothing at all about Mary or John the Baptist or Apostle Peter except as an ancillary role to a sermon message about God.

Since then, I have met a number of Catholics who have informed me that Mary is venerated, and not worshipped. And thus I should not fall for the caricature that Protestants have that Mary is worshipped by Catholics. Analogously, the same thing about icons in the EOC.

So I acknowledge their distinctions for there is a difference. My observation, however, is that some of their laity do not draw the same distinctions as some of their more theologically informed brethren, and they do conflate veneration and worship of Mary. I've been informed of this by a number of former Catholics.

Anyways, this is a very good post. Thanks for writing it.

Turretinfan said...

TU&AD:

The candles smell the same on Mary's side altar as on the main altar.

- TurretinFan

natamllc said...

TF,

do you betray your former behavior?

One's nose has to have been present to know there is no differences? :)

Although, when outside a RCC in Cebu City, Philippines, there was a distinct difference in the smells coming from the lit candles. Over to one side were the vendors selling the latest candles, some were more perfumed than others! So one could have a bit of a conflict with that assertion to TUAD?? :)

natamllc said...

Hiram,

amen!!!

Lvka said...

"Is Mary Greater than John the Baptist?"


Yes, because she was baptized with the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, while John was not.


Matthew 11:11  Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

Luke 7:28  For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.


[The least of the (baptized) N.T. Saints are greater (because of the grace imparted to them at Baptism) than the greatest (unbaptized) O.T. righteous].

Lvka said...

Apart from the God-man Himself, Mary and John are the holiest human beings (man and woman) that have ever lived: John is the greatest righteous and Mary the greatest Saint.

Turretinfan said...

There's nothing in Scripture that says that. I realize that is no obstacle for folks to hold that position.

Turretinfan said...

Surely John the Baptist could be said to have the Baptism of Desire, if anyone could be said to have that.

Tim M. said...

As an Orthodox Christian, I'm puzzled by your initial claim that for us, John the Baptist is more important than Mary. What causes you to say this? That's certainly not how it looks to me.

Of the 12 Great Feasts of the Church, 3 are entirely about Mary (The Nativity of the Theotokos, the Presentation of the Theotokos, and the Dormition). At least 3 others have significant Marian components (Annunciation, Christmas, and the Meeting of the Lord in the Temple). While John the Baptist turns up a bunch of times in the calendar, the only one of the Great Feasts involving him at all is Theophany, and that's a feast of Christ and of the Trinity more than of John.

While icons of John the Baptist are common, the fact that the icons of Christ and of His Mother always flank the doors to the alter clearly says something.

Every Liturgy includes a hymn to the Theotokos, while John is commemorated only on his feasts. Prayers to the Theotokos but not to John are part of every worship service. In hymns commemorating classes of major saints, Mary is always named first, followed by John. Finally, the old catechetical lists of saints in order of precedence always begin with Mary.

At least to a naive believer, then, there are an awful lot of ways in which our worship life places Mary above John. I can't think of a single place in which the reverse is true. Maybe there are individual authors someplace in the last 2 millennia who have said something like that, but it's hardly normative. Help me out here.

None of that is to say we're right about that, of course. If the Calvinists put the saints in a different order than we do, that's your business. But I'm astounded to see an article defending that position that begins by associating yourselves with us in that regard. I think you're mistakenly trying to add to your credibility by ascribing to us a position I cannot imagine an Orthodox Christian holding.

Tim M. said...

Thanks for the clarification. The initial remarks about EO/RC could have been read either way, and the immediate transition to the rest of to arguing John > Mary misled me to thinking you were claiming something you aren't.

Carry on, then.

ChaferDTS said...

"Since then, I have met a number of Catholics who have informed me that Mary is venerated, and not worshipped. And thus I should not fall for the caricature that Protestants have that Mary is worshipped by Catholics. "

The RCC does a form of idol worship in that regard. They worship God through Mary. They created these distinctions between latria, hyperdulia and dulia. It has prayers to her and things like this. To me it contains all the essential aspects of idol worship. It has Mary and saints in heaven as the equal to the demi-gods practices in other religions.

"Analogously, the same thing about icons in the EOC."

I normally use the incident of the golden calf to show they are doing almost the same thing.

natamllc said...

Someone above wrote:

"...Apart from the God-man Himself, Mary and John are the holiest human beings (man and woman) that have ever lived: John is the greatest righteous and Mary the greatest Saint.....".

Well, Adam and Eve were the "holiest" human beings and the only two holy human beings to walk the earth! All others have fallen human flesh.

The mystery is the Holy One of Israel was the Only Begotten of the Father to walk in a human's flesh!

The greater mystery, IMO, is that He dwells in my inner being. We are one!

The one of me will never get any better nor can he.

The other one of me can never get any better than he is right now conjoined to Him, reanimated to Him and quickened together with Him!

There is now, for me, a divine tension between what already is now and not yet!


Psa 116:15 Precious in the sight of the LORD is the death of his saints.
Psa 116:16 O LORD, I am your servant; I am your servant, the son of your maidservant. You have loosed my bonds.
Psa 116:17 I will offer to you the sacrifice of thanksgiving and call on the name of the LORD.
Psa 116:18 I will pay my vows to the LORD in the presence of all his people,

hugh said...

Arguing your point from scripture is missing the point. In the RC church Mary is the 2nd Eve, mother of all living. RC is based on both scripture & precedent acquired & absorbed over the past 2000 years. It includes veneration of the BVM & veneration of saints. Mary was recognized at the Synod of Ephesus in the 5th century AD. Ephesus had been dedicated to the veneration of Artemis from 404 BC at the time Thucydides wrote his famous "History of the Peleponnesian War". Mary is a synthesis of all the Mediterranean goddesses, including Isis, who was widely venerated in the ancient world.
If you began your discussion with Eve your spiritual narrative would make more sense rather than beginning with a Bible whose origins, viewed from an archaeological perspective, can be traced to the Babylonian world. See the book: "The Bible Unburied".

Turretinfan said...

"Arguing your point from scripture is missing the point."

It's partly a matter of making the point.

"In the RC church Mary is the 2nd Eve, mother of all living."

So it is claimed.

"RC is based on both scripture & precedent acquired & absorbed over the past 2000 years."

Partly on Scripture and partly on stuff that didn't come from God - that may be true, but it's certainly not my problem.

"It includes veneration of the BVM & veneration of saints."

That would be some of the "not from God" stuff.

"Mary was recognized at the Synod of Ephesus in the 5th century AD."

Recognized? Mary was known to Jesus and the apostles. They didn't venerate her religiously, though.

"Ephesus had been dedicated to the veneration of Artemis from 404 BC at the time Thucydides wrote his famous 'History of the Peleponnesian War'."

ok

"Mary is a synthesis of all the Mediterranean goddesses, including Isis, who was widely venerated in the ancient world."

Well, some of the devotion of her does seem syncretic. Obviously, the historical Mary is the virgin who gave birth to Jesus.

"If you began your discussion with Eve your spiritual narrative would make more sense rather than beginning with a Bible whose origins, viewed from an archaeological perspective, can be traced to the Babylonian world."

Moses was educated in Egypt, actually. But, in any event, yes we begin our discussion with the Bible.

-TurretinFan