Thursday, June 24, 2010

"Born In Istanbul, Turkey" in Context

A kind reader provided me with a link to the full context for the "born in Istanbul, Turkey" clip (link to location for context). The context also includes the "Ergun Michael Mehmet Giovanni Caner" name claim and the "I came to America after going to Beirut and then Cairo" and the "I came to America in 1978" claim (with the claim that he was 14 years old then - that would make him 18 in 1982, but it would also require him to have been born around 1964) and the "speaking Arabic" claim. Perhaps someone with more time on their hands will go through and document everything. I had hoped that there would be circumstance in the context that justified his comment somehow. Now that I see the context, I don't know what to say in his defense.

15 comments:

Concerned Pastor said...

I'm the guy who found the original sermon last night and posted the link on FBC JAX Watchdog. I listened to the entire "sermon" last night and heard the various contradiction clips I have heard before. However I picked out something new. He brags about the car he drove in high school and how cool he was with his "Muslim mullet" then toward the end of the message he says he is one of the messy dirty kids that would not be in church except for bus ministries. He claimed, "I wouldn't go anywhere if it hadn't been for that bus driver." Go figure. I think he even forgets what he says in the same message! The Testimony/sermon droned on for over an hour. When it seemed he was losing his audience he stepped it up the a few spicy yarns. I was also shocked that this message was delivered in 2007, after he was the president of the seminary. I originally thought the "Istanbul" comment was early on in his ministry. I was wrong.

Concerned Pastor said...

One more thought...I really wanted to give Ergun the benefit of the doubt. After all, I have heard those clips ad-nausea. I wanted to hear them in context to at least give him a chance. I must say I was sick to my stomach. To say he is simply guilty of "pulpit mistakes" is incorrect. After looking at all the evidence including hearing his messages in context, there is only one conclusion: He is a habitual liar who needs to repent and resign. God help him, and may Liberty see this get him some serious help. He has no business leading a theological seminary. He is coming to our state next month at a "Go Tell" youth camp to be a guest speaker. Our youth were already planning to attend before all this hit the fan. I am making arrangements to be there in person.

Turretinfan said...

"I really wanted to give Ergun the benefit of the doubt."

Me too. I still would like to give him the benefit of the doubt, and I'm quite willing to receive any defense with an open mind.

That said, I'm not sure what could be brought forth (short of an identical twin brother born two years before him) that could resolve the various issues.

- TurretinFan

Fredericka said...

To mow or not to mow: here, "Never had a lawn to mow."

Here: http://turretinfan.blogspot.com/2010/05/turkey-many-wives-and-many-half.html

natamllc's omment, nearly half-way down the page, "For instance in his April 8th, 2007 "layman" talk you get a glimpse of the "real" Ergun as he talks about his son Braxton being 8 years old. He assimulates audibly talking to Braxton, presumably Braxton and his sugar bear are in the audience when he says of himself, "when I was eight years old I had to mow the lawn".'"

April 8th, he mowed, but then May 31st-June 2nd same year he didn't mow. He must have thought no one back home would listen to this clip from Hawaii.

Yahya Snow said...

Dear all

How about this for a defense of Ergun Caner

He was a nominal Muslim (at best) converted to Christianity and began to embellish his story and credentials because he was being thrust into a position of seniority when it came to Islam by Christians as they assumed (and even subcon pressured the poor guy)

He found it difficult to hold back and played along with it and got carried away.

Perhaps Christians around Caner should look at themselves rather than Caner

Having said that the Caner scandal cannot be left to slide under the carpet...we await eagerly for the outcome of the investigation

Thnaks

Peace

Yahya Snow said...

* assumed he was learned in Islam

Turretinfan said...

"Perhaps Christians around Caner should look at themselves rather than Caner"

There's a certain amount of introspection they should have, to be sure. It's not the same kind of issue, but it is an issue.

Thankfully, Christ offers forgiveness to those who repent and trust in him.

Bennett Willis said...

Here is a link to links to talks that EC made at Golden Gate Baptist Seminary in mid-February of this year. I listened to the Friday one and he talks about the half brothers and sisters that he does not know and his father's "wives." The second and third ones might be interesting too. They took a while to load with my connection--like "get a snack" long. :)

http://www.ggbts.edu/news.aspx?item=74

Anonymous said...

Yahya, I don't think we should be blaming others for Caner's behavior. If he had integrity and character he would have never started lying in the first place. Others looked to him as some sort of expert because he put himself out there as an expert. I don't think the pressure of others led Caner to lie. He's a habitual liar. My personal experience with habitual/pathological liars is that they don't stop lying.

I really feel sorry for Caner's wife. She probably has had doubts about some of his stories for years but liars like him are experts in making you doubt yourself when you question them. She's gotten to live a very good life...lives in a $420K home...probably very popular at the university and Thomas Road and I can imagine she's feeling very uncomfortable right about now. She'll be the dutiful wife for now..standing by his side but there may come a day when she herself sees the whole picture and gets fed up with it.

The old saying is so true.."what a tangeled web we weave when first we practice to deceive"

Caner has woven a monster sized web and is destoying a lot of people in the process. His wife and kids are victims #1.

Anonymous said...

Okay...just listening to some Ergun and Jill Caner audio...I am not sure I've heard anyone mention this radio talk or not yet. It can be found here. http://faithandfamily.com/radio/program/voices-behind-the-veil/

Ergun says when they came through New York, that they were stopped because his father had listed his mother as property. He also talks about his father having multiple wives and in context, you sure think that he is saying his father had several wives at one time, and these wives came to eat after the men left the table.

Fredericka said...

Yahya, I suspect those Christians who believed Ergun's tall tales about jihad can rightfully be blamed for not living up to Paul's instructions, "Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, *thinketh no evil*; Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth; Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things." (1 Corinthians 13:4-7).

After 9/11 people were too quick to 'think evil' of any and all Muslims, and thus believed any repentent-jihadi story, not only EC's but others' as well:

http://www.baptiststandard.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=11298&Itemid=53

This happens in every war: the Japanese also were demonized after Pearl Harbor, Germans in WWI, etc. The enemy is portrayed as sub-human. Here the 'enemy' was defined, by the religious right at least, as 'Muslims,' when fair-minded people were looking for a more careful definition. What Ergun and the others were telling people is that all Muslims are dangerous jihadis bent on the destruction of the West. So there is blame to be assigned for the audience's willingness to believe evil of others, because demonizing an entire population is not consistent with Christian charity. They were too eager to 'think evil;' he only told them what they wanted to hear. But as far as the phony gibberish-for-Arabic and stuff like that, I think 100% of the blame falls on Ergun. His audience weren't looking to be made fools of like that.

natamllc said...

Well, I am now listening today to this 65 minute talk he gave in the Baptist Church in Pearl City, Hawaii.

You have to admit he can be funny!

Something comes to me though as I am pondering this man, his error and this "approach" he takes, [his error], when speaking forth "TRUTH" for the Lord, perceived as one of His "spokesmen"/"messengers".

Consider this verse:
Heb 6:16 For people swear by something greater than themselves, and in all their disputes an oath is final for confirmation.

"For people swear by [something] greater...", hmmmmmm.

Why is that?

Because of disputes.

Disputes are usually settled when "someone" greater chimes in and speaks their particular opinion about a disputation. This is the sort of "due" process we look for when we are disputing with someone about something we are involved in with them.

I realize now, in a greater, somewhat critical, sense, his insecurities and uncertainties bring him to this sort of error when speaking. His peculiar human corruption, making these false assertions about himself, make himself to himself "someone" greater in his own mind when speaking to people.

He might think: "now they will listen to me because I am ......".

Why?

He thinks that "what" he will say to them, which is based in a delusion, will have "more" significance to them. This clearly is not what God intends for His Spokesmen when they speak for Him. And of course, this is not necessary or warranted.

John in his letter wrote this:

2Jn 1:6 And this is love, that we walk according to his commandments; this is the commandment, just as you have heard from the beginning, so that you should walk in it.
2Jn 1:7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not confess the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh. Such a one is the deceiver and the antichrist.
2Jn 1:8 Watch yourselves, so that you may not lose what we have worked for, but may win a full reward.
2Jn 1:9 Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son.

I would assert now Dr. Caner has a perverted sense of belonging in Godly communion with others. And because of this weakness in his flesh, this insecurity, he justifies his own inhibitions and insecurities and poor self-esteem when portraying himself as someone greater in significance when speaking than those he is speaking to. In his mind, portraying himself as being a devout Muslim and former terrorist to his audience, he sets himself in a class of significant people that gives others a sense of esteem feeding his own ego and theirs. It is a sort of self-glorification, by being then self-esteemed to others as greater in authority, he then self-justifies himself to speak these falsehoods to others.

How sad!

1Co 1:26 For consider your calling, brothers: not many of you were wise according to worldly standards, not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth.
1Co 1:27 But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong;
1Co 1:28 God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are,
1Co 1:29 so that no human being might boast in the presence of God.

What's wrong with Christ and His significance in the message we speak or write?

Christ sends His "messengers" to speak on His behalf under the anointing of the Holy Spirit! This is monergistic. Dr. Ergun Caner speaks more synergistically, with a "God plus" authority, which is what John is going after in his epistle, 2 John 9, cited above.

Dr. Caner could do himself a service in the Lord, to cut out of his messages his words and only speak forth His Words instead, not going beyond what the Holy Spirit would have him speak forth to the Glory of God!

Ex N1hilo said...

A couple of interesting points from EC's appearance on the Faith and Family radio program, at http://faithandfamily.com/radio/program/voices-behind-the-veil/, as posted by Anonymous above:

Muslim fathers rub figs on the inside of the mouths of their children to ward off demons, which are known in Arabic as "injeel."

Malcolm X met with orthodox Muslim “Caliphats” during his pilgrimage to Saudi Arabia.

EC said of his mother that, until she became a Christian in 1991, “She remained a woman behind a veil; she remained a woman in the chador.”

Without a doubt the great highlight of these recordings is the sound-bite-esque statement by EC, “Jesus strapped a cross to His back, so that I don’t have to strap a bomb to mine.”

Fredericka said...

"Malcolm X met with orthodox Muslim “Caliphats” during his pilgrimage to Saudi Arabia."

EC's discussion of the Nation of Islam in Day 2 of this interview is very disappointing. He doesn't seem to know much about it. He imagines the Saudis did not perceive Elijah Muhammad as an orthodox Muslim because of his politics. I suspect it was more because Elijah Muhammad taught that Wallace D. Fard a.k.a. Fard Muhammad was Allah.

Turretinfan said...

Fredericka,

A little detail like that?

(chuckling)

- TurretinFan