Of course, Anglicans for many years continued to read form prayers even after the Reformation, but many (if not most) of the Reformation churches quickly abandoned form prayers. Sadly, a few are bringing back form prayers, but that's a topic for another post.
This narrative builds a frequently heard straw man (link) that I think is both sadly not entirely a straw man (i.e. some people really hold to the position represented) and also not an intentional misrepresentation (i.e. the author really thinks that extemporaneous prayer advocates really justify themselves that way).
What is the straw man? The straw man is that we oppose form prayers because we want to "really mean" what we are praying. The narrative makes a compelling argument against that straw man (or is it a straw man?). We "really mean" the form psalms we sing, and we "really mean" the Scriptures that we read.
Why then the extemporaneous prayers?
1) The example of Scripture. Scripture is full of examples of prayers, and these prayers (with one notable exception) are extemporaneous, that is to say that they are ad hoc - to the occasion.
2) The notable exception is the Lord's Prayer (RCCers - we're talking about the Pater Noster or "Our Father.") But this prayer is not presented in Scripture as a form prayer to be prayed as such, but as a template for prayer. It is pray "like this" not pray "these words."
Matthew 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
Luke 11:2 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.
(the more specific - Matthew, providing the interpretation for the more general, Luke)
The Greek word in Matthew is ουτως = thus, like this, in this way
The Greek word in Luke is λεγετε = lay out, relate
"Say" is not a very precise translation, even though it is accurate. In short, the point of both Matthew and Luke is to provide a template, with the important matters to be included in one's prayers, sometimes summarized by the mneumonic:
ACTS
Adoration;
Confession;
Thanksgiving; and
Supplication.
3) The analogy to sermons/homilies. Just as a pastor tailors the sermon or homily for the congregation, applying the truths of scripture to his flock, the man praying applies Scriptural principles of prayer (such as the template of the Lord's Prayer) to the situation at hand.
4) Last, but certainly not least, the specific Scriptural admonition against rote prayers:
Matthew 6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
Have you ever witnessed a Roman Catholic praying a rosary, especially a non-Latin speaking Roman Catholic praying a Latin rosary, and most especially a very experienced and devout Roman Catholic senior citizen doing so with something to be done afterwards, or while engaged in something unrelated, such as driving?
Would you like to try to tell me that those prayers are not vain repetitions just like the prayers of the heathen? They are certainly repetitious, and they certainly seem to be based on a theory that if you say the prayer a lot you will be heard.
-Turretinfan
Monday, October 29, 2007
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The Southern Baptist missionary Lottie Moon had a sister who turned Roman Catholic. Their mother never treated her kindly afterward. There's an old quote out there from her, the gist of which goes like this;
I refuse to dignify anything that seeks to justify the counting of beads with the name "Religion."
Here here!
If one of Luke or Matthew is more specific, it would have to be Luke.
But I don't see the argument that οὕτως means something less than "say this".
For example:
Matt. 2:5 And they said unto him, In Bethlehem of Judaea: for thus (οὕτως) it is written by the prophet.
"thus it is written", doesn't mean that there is a template for prophets saying where Christ would be born, and Bethlehem is only one possible example of what such a prophet might suggest.
As for whether the Lord's prayer is the lone example of non-extemporaneous prayer, most would disagree with you and see the Psalms as rote prayers. Clearly they are prayers, because they say they are: "But as for me, my prayer is to you, O LORD. etc", and clearly they are meant for us to utilize, not just as an historical note for what David happened to pray one day.
Regarding, Matthew 6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions.
The word βατταλογήσω, would be understood as speaking without thinking. As far as I know, it wouldn't be correct to be praying a rosary without thinking. The idea is to use it as an aid to concentration, not as an aid to simply repeat it many times.
There is also the admonition 1Th. 5:17 "pray without ceasing". Things like the rosary are designed as a spiritual discipline for this aim. They are not designed with the aim that if you pray a lot you will be heard. That is a caricature. But I do note that there is the parable of the unrighteous judge of Luke 18:3, where those who keep coming to God about the same thing are likely to be heard.
Orthodox,
I got your post, and you make a good point that the word houtos has a range of meanings - some of which would be useful to those who would want to view the Pater Noster as a form prayer, rather than as a prayer form.
Before I decide whether to address your comment in detail, would you mind telling me whether it is Orthodox to pray Rosaries?
Is it apostolic?
If your answer is "yes," I'll gladly address the other points you raise. If your answer is "no," what is the point of your comments - simply to defend the practice of saying the Lord's Prayer rote?
-Turretinfan
"would you mind telling me whether it is Orthodox to pray Rosaries?"
The Rosary is a later western evolution of the Orthodox prayer rope, which is like a knotted bracelet.
Is the bracelet itself apostolic? Probably not, it is a tool to fulfill the apostolic command to "pray without ceasing".
Apparently God is happy with such repetition:
Rev. 4:8 And the four living creatures, each of them with six wings, are full of eyes all around and inside. Day and night without ceasing they sing,
“Holy, holy, holy,
the Lord God the Almighty,
who was and is and is to come.”
That is the kind of worship that occurs in heaven.
By engaging in the spiritual discipline, prayer becomes second nature.
Orthodox,
What on earth makes you think that the song of the four living creatures is a prayer?
-Turretinfan
"By engaging in the spiritual discipline, prayer becomes second nature."
Sure - agreed - but praying a rote prayer does not equal spiritual discipline, and results in mindless repetition of the rote prayer, not real prayer.
-Turretinfan
"What on earth makes you think that the song of the four living creatures is a prayer?"
A song addressed to God. A prayer in song.
"Sure - agreed - but praying a rote prayer does not equal spiritual discipline, and results in mindless repetition of the rote prayer, not real prayer."
Of course, you've decided a-priori what "real" prayer is. I suppose the song of the four living creatures is mindless repetition and not "real" song.
One isn't supposed to do these prayers "mindlessly". There is an old story of a nun who was telling her spiritual father how many hundred times she had said the Jesus prayer. His advice to her was to say it only 5 times, but with full attention. She wasn't able to do it because she had not been doing it right.
You need to brush up on your Greek, compare to Revelation 11:17, the creatures are singing about God, not to God.
Even if the song were to God, why would you assume that it were a sung prayer instead of just a hymn?
For that matter, why translate: "and they rest not day and night" as a modifier of their song? In context, the song is much more reasonably viewed as one-time or occasional.
-Turretinfan
What, because Lord isn't vocative? It would only be vocative if Lord is part of the address, rather than part of the statement.
"Even if the song were to God, why would you assume that it were a sung prayer instead of just a hymn?"
What's the difference? Too much naval gazing going on here.
"For that matter, why translate: "and they rest not day and night" as a modifier of their song? In context, the song is much more reasonably viewed as one-time or occasional."
The "without rest, day and night" is followed by the participle "saying"... holy holy.
What translation are you using?
Apparently God is happy with such repetition:
Rev. 4:8 And the four living creatures, each of them with six wings, are full of eyes all around and inside. Day and night without ceasing they sing,
“Holy, holy, holy,
the Lord God the Almighty,
who was and is and is to come.”
Really, and how does these living creatures' praying translate into human beings "praying without ceasing" as a form prayer, using a prayer rope or rosary, etc.?
There are, pun intended, several links in the chain to get from the first to the last. Where are the supporting arguments?
What we have in Revelation is Apocalyptic language. Why literalize it to mean that this is repetitious prayer to God, and if so, what does this repetition actually represent? Does it represent continual praying of human beings by prayer ropes and rosaries and form prayers, or does it represent something like the continual glorification of God by every class and category of creation,or the embodiment of the most noble, strongest, wisest,and swiftestin animate Nature (including Man) giving glory to God, or are these angelic beings?
There are several interpretations of the living beings in your own Holy Tradition. One, for example, is that they represent the Four Gospels. So, how do you know what these creatures are, in order to deduce a your assertions here about prayer?
And, if you are going to literalize this the way you have, then why not also deduce that such prayers must be offered by 4 persons together in equidistant places from a central place in a room, like the altar?
And how do you know that this is repetition is not extemporaneous on their part, given their state of obvious rapture before the throne of God itself?
And how do you get from this event to what we do on earth in this life?
TF,
I agree with you that the rosary (as well as stations of the cross, etc) does wind up being mindless repetition (at least with such frequency and common experience that it speaks against the practice as something to be generally embraced or encouraged).... and I say this from personal experience. Additionally, there is more damage done when such prayers are assigned as duties-- tasks to complete... like taking out the trash or mowing the lawn.
I agree with Orthodox that "that's not how it SHOULD be"... even that that's not how they were originally intended.
But indeed, that is what they have become for most people. It would be one thing to use them as a willing meditation and launching point for additional adoration and praise, reflection on one's sin, etc. But when they become something to "get done", it loses all value (becomes vain).
This is not just a matter of the individual believer approaching it with the wrong heart. I had the rosary "assigned" to me (to be repeated 10 times) as penance for lying. Not only was did I want to get done so I could go home, but the simple fact that it was penance changed it from an adoring lingering meditation to jail time (something inherently to be minimized). Not to mention, all the mothers were in a tizzy because the new priest had assigned me a penance on par with a murderer... (that's another subject, but points to the inherent drudgery of the practice).
The sign of the cross is another thing that was concieved as good and useful... and went sour (vain). It in theory is a way to doubly focus on your prayer by engaging your body and reminding yourself of your need for the work of God. But... it very easily becomes a talisman for good luck, or a task that must be completed before you can sit down in church.
Walking the labyrinth... very helpful if approached right, with scripture as your guide and God foremost in your mind... but it also can be a vanity (and worse, if you are not grounded in truth, or you are taught to just "let your thoughts flow", it can lead you down the wrong path).
I guess I would say that every spiritual practice and discipline should be diligently discerned as to where your heart and mind is while doing them, WHY you are doing them, and whether your doing them glorifies God, or you... and none of them should be "required". For as soon as a leader "requires" them of you, it changes everything.
"Not only was did I want to get done so I could go home, but the simple fact that it was penance changed it from an adoring lingering meditation to jail time (something inherently to be minimized)."
When a leader tells me to do something I absolutely do not want to do, I turn it around and think great, what a wonderful opportunity to work on my humility and do it anyway.
All churches have their things you "have" to do. At a minimum it is coming regularly, standing when you are meant to stand, sitting when you are meant to sit, singing when you are meant to sing, and praying when you are meant to pray. How you are going to escape this, I don't know. Maybe if you become a desert monk or something.
Interesting claim.
Does your sect of Orthodoxy Antichian Russian, or whatever, (and I recognize that you officially do not consider each other sects) impose penance as part of the confession process?
-Turretinfan
Penance properly is a synonym for repentance and refers to the whole confession process.
What you want to know is whether the priest will recommend some course of action during the process of penance.
The priest may recommend some course of action with a therapeutic intent. The priest may modify the prayer life of the penitent if needed to combat the sins that the penitent struggles most with, for example. Or if something was stolen, he would probably tell you to give it back. If the sin is greed, he may council arms giving as a cure. The intention is never to punish, but to heal and purify.
Does that answer your question?
A simple "no" would have answered the question even better.
Roman Catholic penance is non-analogous toward the spiritual discipline of the "Orthodox."
-Turretinfan
"When a leader tells me to do something I absolutely do not want to do, I turn it around and think great, what a wonderful opportunity to work on my humility and do it anyway."
Good for you. But you missed my point.
"All churches have their things you "have" to do. At a minimum it is coming regularly, standing when you are meant to stand, sitting when you are meant to sit, singing when you are meant to sing, and praying when you are meant to pray. How you are going to escape this, I don't know. Maybe if you become a desert monk or something."
No, actually, my (current) church (even if it is the only one on earth like this) exhorts and encourages, but does not "require"... and certainly not those things you list.
And they don't assign specific prayers or duties as punishment for temporal sins. Rather, they work on getting you to actually repent (from the inside).
The difference in this is whether your participation (even obedience) is in the external motions borne out of a fear of man, or flowing from the internal borne out of a fear and love of God. The difference is whether you are doing what your fellow man expects... or whether you do it for the glory of God because you agree that is what God expects. The difference is whether the things you do are "chores" or "passions."
"The difference in this is whether your participation (even obedience) is in the external motions borne out of a fear of man, or flowing from the internal borne out of a fear and love of God."
All sides can do things for the wrong reasons. All sides can just go through the motions with no change of heart. The point is?
Try to not read between the lines, and you will understand the point.
The point is that whether or not a given practice is vain or legalistic, depends not only on the heart of the person doing the practice, but also on how the institutional doctrines, institutional leadership, and immediate mentors of the person present the practice, as well as whether the practice can even be presented or taught in a non-legalistic manner.
O: I appreciate that houtos has a range of meaning, and I think you make a good point there.
Psalms are for singing, though it is certainly interesting that many do refer to prayer.
Your "being heard for much speaking" argument seems somewhat conflicted against itself.
*********
As for the issue of vocative declension, yes, exactly. It mentions the Lord, but not in the form of an address to him. If it were vocative, you'd have some support, as it is, you have none.
"navel gazing"?
There's a Scriptural distinction between prayers and Psalms.
I'm using the KJV, which accurately translates the phrase "and they rest not, day and night."
-Turretinfan
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